PT Do you like the way Anakin fell to the DS?

Yeah, I have to agree with this. Unfortunately I just found the character presented in the PT to be unbelievably inconsistent with the character presented in the OT.

This has been said 100 times, but I really feel that deciding to make Anakin a child in TPM was easily the biggest mistake of the entire PT

 

In my book a hero who also does terrible things is not a hero. Like I said the depiction of Anakin as a padawan in the PT to me, was one of an accident waiting to happen. I didn't see the best star pilot in the galaxy and the good friend, that Obi-Wan talked about, nor did I see the powerful Jedi, that Yoda mentioned. I admit it has everything to do with my expectations of the character, but the way the character was set up in the OT, suggested that Anakin was old enough to be Obi-Wan's good friend, an equal, who was also a hotshot pilot, and lived to become a powerful Jedi Knight, before he was seduced by Palpatine. This is also, why Sebastian Shaw was chosen to be the face of Anakin in ROTJ, an older gentleman, who was 78 years old at the time. The PT would have us believe, that Anakin was only 45 years old, when he died, which is wholly inconsistent with his depiction in ROTJ. Of course now the explanation is, that he's aged, because of the dark side of the Force, or something like that. However, to me, the way Anakin's backstory was handled, diminished the character.

I agree, he appears subservient to both Tarkin and the Emperor, but Darth Vader was never stupid. He was the guy who takes charge, who's on the frontline. Darth Vader is cunning, and ruthless, and surprisingly charming, particulary in TESB. He was also plotting against his master in TESB, showing that he was not just the subservient slave to Palpatine's will. The Darth Vader of ROTJ was old, conflicted, and had lost his edge. He had gambled on Luke joining his cause, and lost. He realises this, as is evident from his remark to Luke "It's too late for me son". He knew, he was on his way out. So, I don't see his depiction in ROTJ as particularly consistent with Anakin in the PT. In the PT he appears to be a guy, who's easily manipulated, and frankly a bit thick. He certainly doesn't come across as very cunning or clever.

 

Note that I said heroic acts. Anakin does acts as heroic as Luke. He saves Obi-Wan's life multiple times, both on-screen and offscreen and risks his own life to help him. However much Anakin might chafe under Obi-Wan's direction, those are the acts of a devoted friend.

In regards to the bolded section, well, the fault of that obviously lies with TESB. ANH suggested that Anakin was Obi-Wan's best friend and peer while Vader was the young, seduced apprentice. When TESB combined Anakin and Vader, though, that meant reconciling Anakin and Vader's backstories. I think that the issue may be that many expected Lucas to have Anakin's original backstory supercede Vader's when the opposite occurred.

I also think that Shaw was chosen not to show Anakin as old but to show the decay and exhaustion and ruin caused by the Dark Side. Don't forget that Anakin originally wasn't going to be a Force Ghost. Lucas was convinced to include him by an outside source. That's why he wasn't shot along with Alec Guinness. Instead, Lucas shot Shaw alone for what Shaw believed were promotional images.

Vader isn't stupid -- he's a fool. By which I mean he's not unintelligent (Anakin has a wonderful grasp of mechanics and piloting and even battle tactics) but he's ruled by his emotions and lacks wisdom. He's rash and reckless. And even in ROTS, Anakin can shown to be plotting -- he joins Palpatine not in complete ignorance of what the man is. Note that he says to Padmé (rather arrogantly) that he can overthrow Palpatine.

In terms of ROTJ, for example, one scene that has always stuck out to me is when Vader tells Jerjerrod that he can "dispense with the pleasantries." Anakin no longer cares for flattery because, based on the PT, he once let himself be fooled by Palpatine's praise telling him that he would be the most powerful. I think that's a consistent and intriguing link between the PT and OT.

In ROTS, Anakin realizes that he's damning himself (hence the tears) but he's also desperate and frightened. That's what makes him a fool -- that he gives in to those emotions. And I think that you overlook that just as Luke's rejection broke him, so to did Padmé's rejection and death along with Obi-Wan leaving him on Mustafar. I don't think it's a coincidence, for example, that Obi-Wan shoots Grievous' heart to kill him and that Grievous is a foreshadowing of Vader.

Also, let's not forget that Anakin is young in AOTC and ROTS. And, as I get older, he seems almost painfully young given the burden placed on his shoulders. He's, what, 22 (maybe 23) when he joins Palpatine.

 

I got to admit I didn't like:

"to cheat death is a power only one has achieved but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret"

it got no reaction from Anakin what so-ever...Palpatine said he already had the power.

Anakin is supposed to be a smart character, not Peter Griffin, or worse Homer Simpson.

 

I disagree. The fact is that even in ROTJ Obi-Wan says: "Anakin was a good friend. When I first knew your father, he was already a great pilot, and I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him". In the context of what we knew at the time, this implies:

1) Anakin was Obi-Wan's good friend, suggesting they were roughly of the same age
2) Anakin was old enough to be a great pilot

There was no precedent for child pilots in Star Wars up till that point. The youngest pilot we had seen was Luke, who was in his late teens, and had become quite a good pilot. Anakin was a great pilot, suggesting he had more more experience, which would probably make him at least as old as Luke. So, this is consistent with Anakin being in his sixties, by ROTJ.

Yes, but that makes Anakin seem even more thick. Vader in TESB knew he couldn't defeat Palpatine on his own (originally Palpatine was far more powerful than Vader, before the Chosen One made his entry). That's why he wanted to enlist Luke. Vader was a master at tactics, and this was his strategy. Anakin believing he could overthrow Palpatine in ROTS, made him seem like a kid out of touch with reality. This is not strategy or cunning, but stupid.

 

Okay, I'm really sorry but how does "good friend" = "same age"? When I was 19, I was very good friends with a 46 year old. Moreover, funnily, I (as a 19 year old) held seniority over him at our job, a university setting. And Anakin undoubtedly was a good pilot in TPM. I don't see how this suggests that Anakin had to be at least as old as Luke.

A young person being arrogant concerning their abilities is not at all out of touch with reality, IMO. I met enough young 20-something military men who took absolutely idiotic risks and yet, men in their 40s were much more restrained and tactical (like my 46 year old friend who's a Marine -- he shakes his head at some of the things he pulled in his youth).

Plus, given how poorly Anakin's last duel went, it's not surprising he decides to recruit Luke in TESB. The man learned from that mistake, at least.

 

I'm talking about what was logical in the context of the OT. You're arguing that TPM, while stretching the credibility imo, didn't really contradict the OT outright. This doesn't change the fact, that this choice by GL defied expectations. Nobody imagined Anakin would be a 9 year old kid before TPM. Everything suggested that Anakin and Obi-Wan were much closer in age, than they were in the PT, for reasons I stated previously, and that Anakin had a similar journey as Luke, before being seduced by Palpatine.

 

Look at Anakin in TPM, AOTC and ROTS. He is a good boy and man. A very good man and a good friend. The greatness is more of a feeling from Obi-Wan for his old friend who never had let him down until the end and one wonders how much he placed on Palpatine twisting him.

Look at the way he wants to save everyone he loves. He loves his mother, Padme, Obi-Wan, R2, hell he even wants to go save a clone pilot before Obi-Wan stops him.

Calling Anakin gullible doesn't work as EVERYONE in the galaxy was fooled by Sidious. That was his brilliance. Luke knew him for half an hour, knew he was evil and still almost fell.

If Anakin is gullible then Luke is a total moron and I don't think Luke is one.

Sidious is just THAT DAMN EVIL and SEDUCTIVE.

 

Sure, it defied some people's expectations. But again, I think those expectations were, in large part, based on the idea that Anakin's backstory would supercede that of Vader's when the opposite is what actually occurred.

And Anakin's journey does have some similarities to Luke's (though there are distinct differences).

 

However, Anakin's backstory did supercede Vader's in ROTJ. He remained Obi-Wan's good friend, and Obi-Wan's story about Anakin being a great pilot when they met, further reinforced this, because as I said there was no precedent for child pilots, in Star Wars continuity or in reality.

 

Appropriate reaction - "WTF DO YOU MEAN YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO SAVE HER?!??!?!?! ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME? YOUR WHOLE DAMN STORY WAS B******T?"

 

Well I for one certainly have a lot more people than Anakin on my list of "gullible" characters

(BTW, I may not always agree with you, but I enjoy reading your posts.... so cheers!)

 

Is that truly a proper barometer of correctness?

So, if was revealed that Yoda was actually 4 mice in a costume and the force was actually best demonstrated by David Blaine, Street Magician ... and it sent everyone over the edge ... it means he made a good choice?

In all seriousness, I think you are right that it "ruined" our own prequel stories in our heads - but in a terrible way.

It took everything we had come to understand and then completely trash it. It was like making Jason Vorhees just a misunderstood guy that thinks machete stabs are just another form of love tickles.

• The force moved from some Buddhist-type concept to a science based thing. That rather than being attuned to it and getting good at it through practice, it became some quantifiable property. Like your white blood cell count. This is diametrically opposed to the way it was presented in the OT.
• Vader was one of the ultimate villains in cinematic history - and was reduced to a childish whelp that was more easily duped than bringing your dog to the vet.
• A lot of story that was set in the OT was completely ignored or washed over in the PT.
• Etc.

So, yes, it did ruin our stories. But mainly because most of the fan-based concepts of how they would have done it are vastly superior to what Lucas put on screen. They stay true to the mythology that was established and expand those concepts.

I know it's blasphemous around here - but I truly feel it was wonderful that Lucas is no longer involved with Star Wars. He might have a good vision for a story, but he has lost his ability to tell a good story. He infected Indiana Jones with the same tripe that nearly ruined the PT.

Ultimately, the ideas of George Lucas in 1977 were vastly superior and more engaging, to me, than what Lucas circa 2000 could ever muster.

 

I agree. Anakin's reaction was basically, "Yeah, okay. Sure. I don't care, whatever."

 

Ya. You'd think he'd at least say - "Well, it would seem that running off fighting Jedi and slaughtering children is not the magical missing ingredient. How about you hold down the fort here, Palpy, while I run off and try to figure out what this power is, mmm-kay? Good, I'm glad we are in agreement."

"Oh, and before I walk out the door ... why again can't Jedi learn this power? I mean, you said it really hardcore like - and I'm just wondering why life saving techniques is not really in the skillset of the light. Wanna explain that, dawg?"

 

Ok another new user on this site pretending to be a Star Wars "fan". Yes Darth Vader is the ultimate villain in cinema history believe it or not he didn't start out evil as much as some viewers don't like that he was once a good person and he was seduced to the dark side, that was the point of the prequels.... Honestly you are just ranting and rambling and you should leave these boards if you don't have anything constructive to say

 

3 moments or Incidents is not NEARLY enough to warrant going from being a functional albeit concerned follower of the Jedi Order to Slaying Younglings, The signs / incidents should have started in Episode 1 and gradually got more concerning.

It was way to sudden, We're told Palps and Anakin's relationship is close but we're not really shown that until Palps starts being rather obvious.

For me, it's what makes the PT so disappointing. It wasn't centered enough around Anakin's development (side note, he wasn't displayed as powerful enough for me, He was the chosen one afterall, highest Midichlorian count and all that,but he doesn't do much that makes him stand out from other Jedi really)

 

It is hardly just a few incidents though. I admit there could of been more, but there are hints all throughout the PT leading up to the actual moment he finds out "he killed Padme" and there is now no longer any of "Anakin" left in him.

If you have the time, give this thread a read, it is my interpretation of Anakin's fall.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/an-analysis-of-anakins-turn.50027331/

I thought this on seeing the whole PT, it was a little disappointing how they didn't do more to show Anakin's power.
There are moments here and there. Example - Anakin free-falling during the Coruscant chase scene in AOTC. He jumps out of the speeder several stories up, and times it so a moving target will be exactly in the right spot when he reaches it.

 

It should have been the Core focus of the entire series though, sure there were slight hints and what not, But for me at least it didn't feel like he was even close to turning until he was in the room with Palps and Mace.

Yeah that was cool, he got whooped by Count Dooku, But more importantly I would have like to see him have really strong Force abilities.

When he finds out he killed Padme, the "NOOOOOO" Scene is one of the most cringe worthy moments in the entire PT. Get angry and destroy everything.....sure but don't shout noooooo, it was just dumb

 

It was the delivery that was lacking Imo. The context, that Anakin Skywalker was ceasing to exist, would be hard to do any other way.

 

precisely, Myself as an audience member didn't feel or believe he was turning.

and i think thats my biggest gripe with the movie, it's not so much they're too bad (though some parts are really awful, some are good though) it's just they could have been done better.

 

Worth noting, however, is that Yoda said in The Empire Strikes Back that Luke was too old to begin training as Jedi, which I would assume at least implies adolescence or younger was the required age range. And if Obi-Wan took it upon himself to train Anakin, then the originals themselves were already implying that Anakin had great piloting skills from a pre-adult age.

 

Not exactly, because the way Obi-Wan states, that he took it upon himself to train Anakin, and that he thought he could do just as well as Yoda, suggests to me that Anakin, like Luke was deemed to old to be trained as a Jedi, which is why Obi-Wan did it himself. This also explains Yoda's apprehension for training Luke, as Luke like his father is too old, and prone to anger. This is the only logical explanation, because if this is not the case, why bring up Luke's age in the first place.

 

It's not 3 moments. There's several instances of build. When Anakin expresses his displeasure with the jedi, that's a piece, dreaming about his mother dying, that's another, his relationship with Padme is another, that scene where he talks about his idea of government should be is another, when he vows to never let another loss happen is another and where he declares that he should be powerful enough to keep people from dying and that he will be able to is one as well, as is the scene where Padme tells him she's pregnant, and his dreams of Padme is too, the same thing goes for him being denied from being a master and him saying that he wants more than he should. There are many pieces that make up the puzzle. They aren't just 3 moments. Those are just the conclusion to those pieces being put together to form the puzzle.

God bless you! God bless everyone!

 

I've always been more of a PSP fan, even if the Vita sort of caught me off guard with that touch screen stuff. 3DS had some cool games, but I admit, I liked a good deal of DS games. Not as nostalgic as GBA, but still

Oh, wait a minute....