Lit Do you like the young Palpatine in Darth Plagueis?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Slowpokeking, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Havac Former Moderator

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    Well, not the entire history. We missed out on most of the mad-scientist Sith alchemy mysticism stuff.
  2. Todd the Jedi Mod and Inquisitor of SWTV

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    You get my point, though. :p
  3. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Hmm, perhaps, but are you not overlooking the other element of being a Sith Lord - unrestrained fury and anger? I'd say he ends up doing exactly what you both ask for, but not at the start, because it requires a refined skill he doesn't yet possess.
  4. Havac Former Moderator

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    Some Sith run hot and some run cold. Palpatine may be quite angry, Dooku might be quite angry -- but they don't lose their minds slaughtering people. Even Vader -- when he gets pissed off at people, he clinically Force-chokes them to death and then goes back to work. Anger and fury, internal turmoil and rage may be there, but they don't have to manifest in the form of incoherent, explosive, uncontrolled violence.
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  5. Jedi Ben Chosen One

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    Of the 3 only Dooku really seems to exhibit the absolute control at all times you're requiring Hav. There's Anakin's slaughter of the Tuskans and the seperatists, though it could be argued the latter is more controlled and clinical perhaps. Anakin/Vader then goes onto to exhibit this control. Perhaps simply following the path of his master? As there's Sidious' slaughter of his family. Yet, are we making too much of what appears to be, in both cases, an isolated instance? That after each, both got far better at shrouding their monstrous side, despite Sidious likely quite reveling in it?
  6. Gorefiend Chosen One

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    Dooku seems to derive his “Dark Side points” more from small cruelties and intrigues. The Republic comics show this a few times, especially his interaction with Quinlan.
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  7. WIERD_GREEN_MAN Jedi Grand Master

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    Hasn't it been said tha Dooku is ice cold in the force while Vader has a burning hot presence?
    Part of the reason why I find Dooku so interesting.
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    First off, I give Luceno big points for establishing Palpatine as always having been, more or less, an irredeemable slimy little psychopath. A lot of writers would have made him a troubled-yet-sympathetic Anakin-type character who falls in with the wrong crowd and oh-so-tragically becomes consumed by the dark side. But, nope, Palps was never going to turn out any good. Which is the right way to go for the character, given that he's the physical embodiment of ultimate evil and all that. I especially liked the brief exchange he had with Plagueis about his life's ambitions, where he starts out waffling over the direction he wants to take his life career-wise--at which point Plagueis straight out asks him what he really wants to do, and Palpatine ponders for a split-second then answers, "Everything." No ambivalence, complete conviction, the one thing Palpatine knows he wants to do is "everything." Given what he know of his eventual end-game plan for the universe--namely, his plan to pretty much become the entire universe--that's a pretty damn chilling answer. It's what I think the core of Palpatine's evil springs from; the monster inside of him came into being for the sole purpose of consuming the universe and transforming it into more of itself, until nothing is left but itself, for eternity. And the monster is entirely capable of succeeding at this task. What sounds like your standard, run-of-the-mill megalomaniacal ambition is actually something much scarier when it comes from this kid. So yeah, I love that part. A lot. If the only information we were ever given about young Palpatine was that short exchange with Plagueis, I would have been more than satisfied.

    But I've still got some fundamental criticisms of a lot of Luceno's other choices for the character. One of the most disappointing bits was Luceno giving Palpatine a bunch of daddy issues by making his father an abusive jerk. Before Plagueis came out, if I had to imagine what Palpatine's father would have been like, I would probably have guessd that he was an impotent, yet mostly good-hearted and caring man whose son inexplicably turned out to be unrepentantly evil. We already have enough villains in fiction who became the way they are due to the sad cycle of domestic violence. Adding Palpatine to the list just seems lazy and unnecessary. Now, Luceno was dead on-target when it came to Palpatine harboring a deep-seated disgust for his progenitor's mediocrity--that's completely in keeping with his characterization as the ultimate narcissist. Palpatine views everyone that way, after all, and I don't doubt that even someone like him, with such a big-picture view of the scope of his superiority over everybody in the universe, would direct a little bit of extra hatred toward the particular inferior being from whom he necessarily had to be spawned. I mean, come on. That's gotta rub anyone with a God complex the wrong way.

    e:
    Especially disappointing given that that was the most interesting aspect of the character and arguably what a majority of fans wanted more information about after Episode III.
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Oct 27, 2012
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  9. Lugija Force Ghost

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    With Palpatine it's most interesting that he doesn't really do anything dark-sidey himself in the movie era, with the exceptions of converting and training of apprentices. He instead arranges bad stuff to happen (like the battle of Naboo, the Clone Wars and Dooku killing Sifo-Dyas). He's like a collector of the Dark Side in the galaxy. That's why I want to know more about him after he has secured the Empire and before the rise of the Rebel Alliance, when he's like a collector of Beatles music who has just bought their last album.
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  10. Todd the Jedi Mod and Inquisitor of SWTV

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    Yeah but Phantom, the book clearly states Palpatine isn't the way he is as a result of having an abusive father. It's implied his mother is loving too. No, his father outright says that he always knew there was something sinister about him from the day he was born. He would have turned out the way he did no matter how nice or mean his parents were.
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Oct 27, 2012
  11. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Palpatine likes manipulating other people into doing acts of great evil. He already knows he can do whatever he wants on an individual level, what he really wants to know is if he can make everyone else do whatever he wants. He's outsourcing his evil sickness to the rest of the universe in the hopes of ripening its residents for the moment when he finally decides to literally steal their souls. That's more evil than any single dark side act he could commit himself.
  12. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Yes, I should have acknowledged that Luceno clearly wasn't implying that it was all because of mean old Daddy. But that just makes the added dynamic with his father all the more extraneous. It unnecessarily confused the issue of the roots of his evil and ruined the purity of his status as a lost cause from the get-go.

    e: If I recall correctly, his father was initially portrayed as a bit of a liberal humanitarian when he expressed disgust at historical atrocities inflicted upon the Gungans by the Naboo*, which was nice. But didn't it later come out that he didn't really care about the genocidal actions at all, and was in fact just manipulating the historical record to discredit his political opponents? What's the point of that flip-flop?

    *(Even though the dialogue from Episode I clearly precludes such things from having happened.)
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Oct 27, 2012
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  13. Todd the Jedi Mod and Inquisitor of SWTV

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    I don't know, if you realized your baby was evil incarnate, would you ever treat him nicely? Especially if you're a stingy nobleman like Cosinga. I don't remember exactly how Cosinga was portrayed, though, since January was so long ago.
    Last edited by Todd the Jedi, Oct 27, 2012
  14. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Appropriate, given that His Majesty was an avid patron of the arts. Doubtless he was collecting all the Beatles albums in order to preserve them from destruction at the hand of the Yuuzhan Vong.
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  15. Ulicus Lit'ari

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    "I will even learn to stop Lennon from dying, I promise you!"
  16. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    My take on Palpatine and his family was there was some loose wiring in him from the get go, however his family didn't get him therapy or anti-psychotics or committed or whatever the right response is for a sociopathic/psychopathic child and covered up his crimes. So when he was an adult, he was the perfect recruit for a Sith Lord.

    He was a bad seed who had rich, snobby, enabling but not EVIL parents.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Oct 28, 2012
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  17. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    I thought the portrayal was spot on. He starts off as this arrogant and insane, but ambitious little **** and through life's lessons grows into the manipulative mastermind we know and love, yet at the same time that little ****'s always there right beneath the surface ready to break free and wreak havoc on his enemies. Honestly, the times when Palpatine seemed happiest, as in when he was most in his element, were the times when he was completely cutting loose and not giving a damn about appearances. I'd say that's him at his basest form and thought that was well shown in the novel. Everything else is just part of the mask society forces him to wear.
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  18. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Whatever the case, Palpatine had to grow into his power and skill.

    He's not Damien Thorne, born of the Dark Side.

    He had to work to become its embodiment.
  19. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

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    Nov 10, 2011
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    Odd, isn't this coming from the same guy who tried to kill Emperor Palpatine in a misguided attempt to impress Natalie Portman?
    Last edited by The_Phantom_Calamari, Oct 28, 2012
  20. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    In the novel he did have his own ambition, wanted to rule the galaxy with Padme.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    In the movie as well "I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him ... And we can make things the way we want them to be."
  22. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

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    Yeah but in the novel he had a much better plan.
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    It's not really elaborated on, other than "kill Palpatine once he's unified the galaxy and made himself hated".
  24. LelalMekha Force Ghost

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    Star Wars: Darth Plagueis was good, but I was a bit disappointed by the portrayal of young Palpatine. I had come to believe that Palps' fondness for opera and other arts was genuine. By reading his Dark Side Compendium, you could also feel he honestly believed his way of governing was good for the galaxy. He's not just a power hungry psycho, he's an opera-loving evil messiah.
  25. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

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    Nov 28, 2009
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    Honestly, I'd prefer the rage-seething mindless psychopath to that.