do you think lucas kind of proved that we were wrong?

Alright duckie... It seems like you are reading a little too much into xx_Anakin_xx's comments.

 

As you wish.

 

I think the reality is that this subject varies widely depending on person. The original post makes a lot of assumptions about how people felt in 1999 and how they feel now. The truth is probably more that some people were with Lucas (despite TPM being further away from Star Wars) in 1999, others were not. Of the people who were with him, some may have not liked where things went and how they were ultimately joined up with the original trilogy. Others did. Of the people who felt TPM was too far out there and not Star Wars, some may have changed their minds and others probably saw nothing in the subsequent prequels that changed their stances. So really, it's just another rehashing of "Did the Prequel Trilogy work for you?" because there are many possible answers to this.

 

Yeah, although I got the sense early in this thread that it was a more specific question of whether ROTS provided a genuine "Ah, now I get what he was doing with the other two" experience, where former critics of TPM and AOTC were made to see that they were mistaken in their criticism.

 

I think AOTC did that for a lot of people. Certainly I remember that being said a lot back in 2002.

 

AOTC is probably my 2nd favorite movie in the saga i never understood the reasons some people give for not liking it.I love the love story it even made me cry when padme died in ROTS becouse i really did feel bad for them as a couple.I also have no problem with the acting and to me anakin acts how he is supposed to,i couldn't picture him being any other way.i guess i am just happy and content with that movie becouse i dont put too much thought into it and i wish it would be that way for every one else.

 

ROTS didn't succeed because of TPM and AOTC, it succeeded in spite of them, critically speaking.


I think that ROTS succeeded because of TPM and AOTC.

 

DJK edit: That adds nothing to the discussion.

 

The PT only succeeded because of the OT.

 

so why did the OT succeed?

I think if the PT came out first, either in the 70's/80's (although probably technically impossible) or now, it would have still become a HUGE success.

 

Bingo.

Who do you think was lining the streets to see TPM at the midnight premier?
Not the newbies....

 

Yet the newbies--i.e., children--went nuts for the film. And I will be very interested to learn how this younger generation appraises the series.

 

They've already grown up. That theory failed. The six year olds are now going on sixteen and no one sees Jar Jar in any better light than when the film first came out, just like the Ewoks never improved with age. I would say the criticism of the film in general is not as intense, but that is expected--it was the most hyped and most disappointing theatrical release in history perhaps, and there are a million worse films than TPM, so its natural that its rep would bounce back a little. Which I believe it has. Its still by and large considered a mediocre film by most people, just not the worst film ever made.

 

My query has yet to be answered. The teenagers of whom you speak are not operating the levers of the mass media. We don't know what they think. Obviously, they'll never have the emotional investment in SW as we did--there's too much competition, now--but who can say how the newer films will fare with the young, now that the trilogy distinctions are gradually giving way to the "Saga" designation?

 

All I know is that at the public library where I work, all of the movies in the series, both OT and PT, constantly get borrowed. I don't see anyone saying, "No, I don't like Jar Jar so I won't get Episode I." The take them all out, because it's STAR WARS and they like it.

Personally, I think that what was ultimately proven was that many people find it difficult to be patient. They wanted Vader on screen in full armor and killing Jedi from the first frame of TPM. They were unwilling to wait for the full story to unfold and see the ways that plotlines set up in TPM would ultimate pay off in AOTC and ROTS. Actually, Jar Jar is a good example of this. Setting him up as the goofy sidekick who ultimately helps save the day in TPM is a perfect set-up to one of Palpatine's most cunning tricks: getting the Senate (led by Jar Jar) to give him near-total power, rather than try and take it. That idea would've had much less impact without that previous idea of who Jar Jar was.

I guess that it's not so much that Lucas proved we were wrong, but we proved Carrie Fisher was right: for us, instant gratification takes too long.

 

Yeah right, I didn't hear one complaint in 1999 that there was no Darth Vader running around killing people. Thats a ridiculous excuse Lucas stated in 2005 and fans have been parroting. TPM got criticised for (percieved) weakness of characters, bad dialog, bad acting, no drama, a weak plot, and CGI overwhelming the human element. Not lack-of-decapitations-by-Darth-Vader. I don't know anyone who seriously expected something like that.

As for the TPM generation, that theory is bunk because we do know what those kids think because they are alive and you can just ask them, and in fact many of them are online. While they won't say "Jar Jar sucks, he's the worst thing of all time!"--and, seriously, was anyone expecting this?--this notion that they would look back upon him fondly is erronious, and was as obviously fallacious in 1999 as it is now when it is proven. Nor has the film been radically re-appraised in any significant way--as if the OT itself was remembered as good purely out of nostalgia. Pretty much 98% of fans today saw ROTJ as a child, and back when it came out it was more popular than ESB, yet the Ewoks are remembered exactly as they were by critics in 1983. As that generation of children grew up, ESB became popular in the 1990's because now that they were adults they appreciated the mature subtext, while ROTJ became known as "the bad Star Wars movie" (ie "the 50 Reasons Why Return of the Jedi Sucks" list) because they were now adults and saw how childish and weaker the film was.
To assert that TPM will be thought of as good only because kids grew up with it is 1) not a legitimate defense of the film but merely the lowering of standards due to the illusion of nostalgia, and 2) by extension asserts that the OT was only remembered fondly due to a parallel nostalgia, which is quite ridiculous, as ROTJ found a new wave of criticism in the 1990's as the children of 1983 grew up and realised it was much weaker than they remembered. Furthermore, the requirments of TPM being re-appraised are quite large since it was so criticised, but not only has there not been a big re-appraisal of it, but there's only been the expected evening out of "it sucks, but not really as badly as everyone said in 1999," if you actually go and talk to people, which is precisely what anyone with an objective lens could have predicted in 1999. But this is all moot for reasons 1 and 2 in the first place. Most teens today either aren't interested in the film in the first place or think TPM is alright in the same way they think Terminator 3 or Die Hard 4 is alright, and thats actually not all that different from a lot of the critical appraisal in 1999; there are those that love it, but there's an equal percentage of adults who love it as well, so this is not a generation-specific thing. In short, its reputation as the worst film ever made has expectedly tempered off so it is indeed looked on in a more fair light, but it is not some overlooked classic or anything, and that is really what this argument boils down to.

 

I agree, but as nostalgia plays an elemental role in fandom appraisal, I allow for its possibility.

Buffalo chips. Although Jedi was eviscerated by both critics and teenage/adult fans upon its release, it has undergone one of the more startling turnovers: the '97 special edition reviews were decidedly more generous ("Not as good as the first two, but..."), and nearly every fan under the age of 35 has some degree of fondness for it. Oh no, ROTJ is not considered a bad movie. I know this because I am among the few who do in fact consider it a bad movie, have stated this repeatedly, and believe me, my views are not popular. The Ewok and Han Solo-neutering are about the only points of contention to which the average fan will cop.

Thing is, how many teens are heavily invested in the series? Do they see the original films as sacrosanct, in the wake of the LOTR and Harry Potter adaptations? Does this affect the way they'd evaluate the new films? I don't make presumptions. I just find these questions interesting.

 

Regardless of whether a person may think that TPM and AOTC are good, bad or indifferent, the assertion that the criticism of those movies was due to a lack of patience at not seeing enough of Vader going around killing people is, in my opinion, condescending and insulting to fans' intelligence. The fact that ROTS may have been perceived to have delivered Vader doing so proves nothing, and changes nothing in terms of the quality of the first two prequels.

 

zombie posted: Most teens today either aren't interested in the film in the first place or think TPM is alright in the same way they think Terminator 3 or Die Hard 4 is alright



and whats wrong with that? Even if its considered the worst of the saga i think as long as its the first star wars movie(watching them in order) it will always be watched and remembered.I think a great experiment would be if lucas re-released them in order in movie theaters what peoples reactions will be becouse in a way isn't that how TESB and ROTJ are considered such classics? ben burt sed on the commentary of TESB that when that movie first came out people really didnt think it was any wear near as good as ANH but now its considered as the best sequel EVER MADE.Peoples opinions can change and i dont see how TPM is any exception in fact i think it is in a perfect position for something like that.

 

Obi-rob-Kenobi4: There's nothing wrong with that. I didn't say there was anything wrong or not wrong with that. But what is wrong is this perception that TPM will become the ESB of the prequels, or be looked on with great fondness by the generation that saw it as youngsters. Its been almost a decade since TPM came out--it hasn't happened, its not in the process of happening, and all indication is that this will not happen in the future. Its reputation has indeed improved, as I said, but only because a lot of people took it as an abomination in 1999.

 

I think we all know why the OT succeeded.

I'd like to see how the PT would have done without the OT to back it up. Even if it was out in the 70's or 80's with the writing, directing and acting it has my guess is it would flop.

It would in no way come close to doing what the OT did.... not snowflakes chance in hell.

 

It would not flop. The pod race alone would've demanded repeat viewings, and I think audiences would've looked past the cornball dialogue and questionable performances. After all, they did with Star Wars and Return of the Jedi.

 

Without the history of the OT behind it, I'd say TPM would've been a moderately successful movie with a particularly strong following among children and family audiences.

 

Questionable performances in ANH?

 

There are aspects to Fisher's performance that never rang true to me. The diplomat persona she maintains throughout the first half of the film is considerably less polished than Portman's TPM outing--almost like a freshman's stab at The Taming of the Shrew--and her response to the Alderaan order is woefully discordant, as if Tarkin were merely emptying her savings account. "Whaaat?" "Noooo...!"