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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

do you think lucas kind of proved that we were wrong?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by obi-rob-kenobi4, Jun 14, 2008.

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  1. Darth_Smileyface

    Darth_Smileyface Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 22, 2004
    Actually, before AOTC came out Lucas was stating that fans probably wouldn't like it as much because it was going to focus on the relationship between Anakin and Padme. "It's essentially a love story" or something like that. And then he cuts out all of the scenes (or most anyway) that would have actually developed a believable love story between the two. And for what? So that he can leave in a banal chase scene that accomplishes nothing, a dead-end detective story involving Obi-wan and a completely superflous and cringe-worthy factory scene. Amazing.

    I think this is why most people who don't like the prequels don't like them. It's more a matter of what Lucas shot and didn't put in than it is of "what I was hoping to see". At least it is for me anyway. If Lucas had left in the deleted scenes in Padme's apartment and nixed (or toned down) one or all of the above-mentioned scenes, AOTC would actually be a good film. Same goes for ROTS. While it was decent as is, it would've benefitted greatly from a toned-down rescue scene and added the deleted "early rebellion" scenes.

    The problem as I see it is exactly the opposite of what you have observed in that I felt Lucas was trying to make the PT too much like the OT putting in completely superfluous action scenes just for the sake of making an "exciting" movie. Seriously, think of the action sequences and what they add to the plot. I know that this is supposed to be a Saturday serial and all that, and that the OT has plenty of nonsensical action sequences that don't really develop the plot, but in my humble opinion, the PT would have been better served by the scenes that were shot and deleted rather than the scenes that were included. Think about it:

    TPM: The "planet core" scene. C'mon. Seriously. The pod race. Very cool (except for jabba and the announcer) but not really necessary to an already long film.

    AOTC: Superlong Coruscant chase scene, Obi-wan P.I. story, droid factory. Ok the Obi-wan part was at least well acted and intriguing. But it went completely nowhere. The chase scene was completely useless and the factory scene has to be one of the worst ideas in the history of the human race, if not the history of the universe. All it serves to do is get Anakin and Padme captured. You telling me GL couldn't come up with something better than that?

    ROTS: really, really, really long opening rescue scene. Why so much screen time for buzz droids and R2D2's antics when GL already states the opening is too long? What happened to GL's editing skills. How do those things pass muster but actually intelligent, subtle expostion scenes hit the floor? Why do I get the feeling that the only thing Lucas regrets is not having more scenes of Grievous coughing?

    Seems to me that the biggest problem with AOTC and the PT in general is what Lucas decided to leave on the cutting room floor. Sure i had my preconceptions, but all in all, if he had released the movies with the more intelligent, intricate scenes he had originally shot instead of the CGI "eye-candy" he is so fond of (that is, if he had actually made movies instead of nice pretty advertisements for ILM), I don't think you would see nearly the amount of complaints about the PT. I for one, would not have a problem with it.
     
  2. THX_1138biggs

    THX_1138biggs Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 9, 2007
    On Lucas' editing skills, I thinks it's amazing how he fitted everything he had in ROTS in only two hours. I thought the rescue scene at the beginning of the movie was spectacular. To have all of that fitted in 20 minutes is a masterstroke. And then he only has 1hr and 10 min to tell the fall of Anakin Skywalker? I am amazed, especially for someone who's edited before and wants to do it professionally. I don't know about everyone else, but I believed everything in ROTS. And I think he accomplished it with story, editing, and emotion in the scenes. So I believe his editing skills are still top notch, and it shows in ROTS.

    AOTC has tons of action set pieces. The factory scenes serves as much as the trash compactor scene in the ANH.
     
  3. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Some of those "love" scenes were more horrifying than the Exorcist.
     
  4. Darth_Smileyface

    Darth_Smileyface Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Apr 22, 2004
    Sorry, I didn't mean to say that the pod race scene was unnecessary, I meant to say that it was too long. The planet core nonsense I do feel was unnecessary but would've worked well had it been shorter (why do they have to escape from TWO giant fish?)
     
  5. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Because there's always a bigger fish?
     
  6. Eta-2

    Eta-2 Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jun 11, 2008
    I will agree that a lot of the problems people have with the PT could probably be solved with some careful editing. I've watched all of ADigitalMan's edits of the films, and while I prefer the original cuts for being more complete, you could see how some scenes would be massively improved by a few gentle edits.
    Honestly, after reading some of Zombie's book, I think a lot of George's editing skills divorced him back in the 80s. :(
     
  7. TheTrueGods

    TheTrueGods Jedi Knight

    Registered:
    May 27, 2008
    The PT is bad, and does not come close to the OT.

    1) TPM was clearly made for small children to enjoy, in the hope they would see it over-and-over and make it the #1 grossing movie. Jar-Jar sucks, and no amount of explaining will change that.

    2) Way too many characters in the PT, and none with any depth. Example, there is a new villian in each movie (maul, dooku, grevious), where in OT you had mainly vader, which made him such a good villian.

    3) IMO, the TPM story-line does not fit well with the following 5 movies. Instead the first of the PT movies should have had a 13/14 year old anakin already apprenticed to obi-wan. Meets senator padme. Sidious and dooku beginning seperatist movement. Then the second movie placed in the height of the clone wars, with dooku as main villian. Last the third movie similar to ROTS. And no freakin gunguns in any of them.
     
  8. LemmingLord

    LemmingLord Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Apr 28, 2005
    Ouch...that smarts. Made me laugh.

    Good points. All of them.
     
  9. AnakinBrego

    AnakinBrego Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jul 15, 2004
    Exactly!!! That's why the garage scene has to go!
     
  10. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007
    to AnakinBrego : That scene is one of THE BEST in the whole movie im sorry if you misunderstood me but i love that scene and think it is one of the most important in the whole movie. Just wanted to clear that up.


    to TheTrueGods : 1.) ANH was targeting the SAME age group so TPM HAD to be the same and it WORKED! it did exactly what it was supposed to do,i am living proof of that becouse if i didnt see that movie when i was 10 years old and laugh at jar-jar and have such a fun time then i would not be such a hard core fan of the saga as i am now. And 2.) each bad guy serves a purpose, darth maul was created right from the beginning to be just like boba fett meaning that he has only a little bit of screen time and says almost nothing ending up a fan favorite that every one wants to know MORE about and it succeeded with flying colors becouse thats just what he became. As for the rest of the characters dukoo was to show that it is possible for a jedi to be corrupted(assuming you are watching them in the intended order) among other things and greavous was a precursor to vader and some one to lead the separatists. He really wasn't that much of an important character at all as supposed to what people think. And above all else to try to make a new villain for the PT half as affective as vader was would be blasphemy!!! Lucas would never want to have a guy in the PT that is as good as you will see vader in the OT becouse it would steal his flame. The movies are supposed to get better and better as you watch them in order. And besides the REAL true villain of the PT is palpatine showing that in the days of the republic you needed more than one big bad villain like vader to take over,you need to work behind the scenes and manipulate all different kinds of underlings until you have the master bad guy that vader ends up being witch will transition you right into the OT like it is all intended to do!

    see? this is what i mean when i say people who dont like the PT need to re-evaluate what they think it "should be"! the way you were describing what you wanted it to be was just making it more like the OT, BUT THATS NOT WHAT THE PT IS SUPPOSED TO BE! its a back story!
     
  11. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2007
    to DARTH-SMELLY-FEET: 1.)maybe certain sand-people in that village weren't responsible for her torture and death but it took more than just the ones that killed her to murder not 10 or 20 but 30 hard working farmers that only tried to get there own back. They were a village of MONSTERS -not worth pity of any kind but STILL you could look at padme's face in that scene and see she felt bad for them and was scared at anakins deeds! And guess what? those ones that weren't responsible, they wont ever get a chance to hurt anyone in the future now will they? AND STILL anakin felt terrible about what he did! Padme understands this and THATS the reason why she forgives him.

    And about what you sed about padme, she does not understand the jedi way or at least the more stricter rules, she is just a nice person that was there for him to help him over come his bad emotional state,it was to show what a beautiful character she is. The point story wise (and why it is so brilliant) is that thats the point in the PT where Lucas shows us anakin first tasting blood so to speak and in doing so strengthens what yoda sed in TESB so beautifully "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny" meaning if you choose to use the dark side just once, for the rest of your life you will be tempted to do it again. Thats whats so great about the PT it expands on ideas and things that we saw in the OT 30 years ago that we can only truly understand now that we saw the PT. This is the point in the PT where we get to finally see him start down the dark path (what everyone complained about NOT seeing in TPM) and not only do we get that we get to see all this great stuff mixed in with a great love story between the two people we know make luke and leia all in the back drop of the clone war we always heard about and wanted to see,and isn't that a great thing? thats why its a shame for people that just cant bring them selfs to see this and just enjoy the PT for what it is and the purpose it serves.
     
  12. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2007



    I agree its just a very poorly written,acted and directed back story. People can see it for what they think it is and so can you. For me the PT will always be the biggest let down in film I've ever seen.

    Thanks GL for making 3 2 hour long ad's for ILM.
     
  13. THX_1138biggs

    THX_1138biggs Jedi Master star 1

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2007
    I love the PT.
    I think Lucas did not have to prove anthing to anyone. The PT was everything I hoped it would be and more. I saw TPM when I was 13 and it blew me away. AOTC at 16 and ROTS at 19. I guess I'm one of the few fortunate people to catch these films at the right ages.
     
  14. Darth_Smileyface

    Darth_Smileyface Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 22, 2004
    For the record, I'm not mad that Lucas didn't make the PT more like "I wanted it to be". He could never have succeeded in that. I'm not mad that he didn't make it more like the OT (in fact I think he should have made it less like the OT, more serious and less action-packed). I mad because Lucas didn't use many of the BEST scenes that he shot. Instead he included Eopie (sp?) farts, extra race and chase scenes (TPM) and (AOTC) and story elements that were completely useless or went nowhere. Why devote all of that screen time to absolute junk when all of the best scenes are hitting the cutting room floor? OK, TPM I can live with, but I remember watching the deleted scenes of AOTC and especially ROTS and being LIVID at some of the editing decisions he made. All for the sake of "speeding up the pacing". How does a scene with buzz droids, or R2's or 3PO's nonsensical antic speed up the pacing (or add anything to the story?). That's where I think GL failed in the PT. He shot good movies, but then he trimmed them down into the junk that we see.
     
  15. Nordom

    Nordom Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 1, 2004

    First off, what are you saying here? It sounds like you think genocide is a good idea, that ALL Tuskens are just evil monsters and should get extreminated. That the galaxy would be a better place with all of them dead?
    The logic that these dead tusken children can not grow upp and harm another is a very dangerous one. You could then say that if a certain murderer had been killed when he was young then his victims would be alive and then we should start killing certain children to prevent future murders. In the end you could argue that ALL crimes are commited by the living and thus ALL living must die to prevent crime.
    To justify slaughter of children by saying that they might have grown up and killed others is a horrible logic in my view.

    Yes what the Tuskens did was terrible and wrong but so was what Anakin did and two wrongs do not make a right. Consider, perhaps the Tuskens are the original inhabitants of Tatooine and they were pushed out into the deep deserts by the humans and other races. So they feel invaded, that their land has been taken from them and so they lash out against anyone.
    If this was the case would this make their actions more understandable?

    Lastly you and Padme miss a very important issue. Anakin is a jedi and so he could be sent into combat zones or otherwise dangerous, tense or hostile situations. So being able to reamin calm under pressure is vitaly important. BUT here he totally lost it and went on a kill crazy rampage, cutting down anything that came across his path. More than that actually, if he had just killed all warriors that came against him that is one thing but he also went round and killed everyone he found, if he came across a baby in a craddle then he would have killed it, young children hideing or pleading for their lives. So he was both angry but also methodical in his killing and made sure that noone got away.
    This makes his VERY dangerous and unreliable as a jedi or in any kind of tense situation.
    If Obi-Wan were to get killed he then could start killing everything in sight.
    If a soldier or cop had reacted in this way he most likely be regarded as unfit for duty and would probably recive help of somekind or possible face charges or be dissmissed from the serivce.

    But Padme apparently ignores this. That she showed compassion to him is ok but she should also have said that Anakin must report this to his superiors and to look for help.
    Why? Because his reaction was normal, that he got very sad and angry but what he then did was NOT normal. To methodically butcher everyone in a camp, down to the smallest child is very wrong. If Anakin knew what he did was wrong then he should have told Obi-Wan and sought help, instead he only told Palpatine about it and lied to the jedi. Padme made matters worse by a) not insiting that he report this and b) by saying what he did was ok and normal.


    To turn a blind eye to the wholesale slaughter of an entire village is not what I consider beautiful or helpfull. That she does not understand that what Anakin did was wrong and that he needs help is very
     
  16. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007
    to Nordom: ok, one thing i should have mentioned before was that Lucas really didn't intend for fans to view the sand-people as anything less than ugly evil space monsters. Killing them is about equal to killing a bunch of wampas or geonosians. As a matter of fact Lucas himself even talks about a popular issue regarding how certain alien species really should be viewed on the commentary of AOTC. He mentions that the geonosians are the ones that the empire gets to work on the 2nd death star and that when the characters of the movie "clerks" get mad becouse they think "innocent" contractors got killed when the rebels blew it up they really should not care becouse and i quote "there just a bunch of ugly,evil bugs". The whole purpose of why anakin felt so terrible was to show that to spite them being evil monsters he still feels bad and knows he did something wrong witch is why padme got scared but didnt bug out on the man she knows is a good person not to mention a hero that helped save her planet 10 years ago. But if it makes you feel better than im sure if it was a bunch of humans that he killed she would have left him resulting in the birth of luke & leia to never happen:D.

    Now the purpose of having that scene in the movie was to finally show him starting down the dark path but to do it in a way where it lets you see it from his point of view witch is a very human reaction, i mean the guys MOTHER died right in his arms after getting tortured and god knows what else for months! the point was to show him ding what ANYONE who is human would do in that situation BUT feeling sorry for it after so this way after you see the movie you ask yourself if the choices you would make would really be that much different. But still you have to remember that this is DARTH VADER we are talking about here and we have to see him starting to go down the dark path. Everyone HATED seeing anakin as a good person in TPM and now they get mad when GL has him kill a tribe of monsters that tortured and killed his only family.

    As for what you sed about the PT contradicting the OT it does not becouse anakin DID fall after killing in cold blood its just that it didnt happen over night, its in inportant a processes. if he just turned after killing the sand-people it would be rushed and ridiculous. We need to see the transition of him getting seduced by the dark side. In ROTJ the emperor was trying to get luke to kill in cold blood becouse after that it would be almost definite that he would share his fathers fate, why? becouse that would be him starting on the dark path just like anakin started by killing the sand-people in cold blood. The reason why we have to see Anakin kill not just once but MANY times in hate is becouse we need to see him getting deeper and deeper until he is consumed by darth vader THAT is the reason why palpatine sends him to kill the jedi and the remaining separatists to do just what you sed only not rushed.

    Thats why people should never say that anakins turn in ROTS is rushed. It is perfectly done in this respect all you have to do is think about it.

    Lastly, as for what you sed about anakin being TOO dark in AOTC that is the first time i have heard that and a lot of what you interpret to be dark is just him being a teenager trying to impress the girl of his dreams but not knowing anything about impressing girls becouse that kind of thing is the opposite of everything he has been told for 10 years. And to say he doesn't live up to how obi-wan described him just becouse he is "rude" in one or two scenes is really over reacting a bit wouldn't you say? Scenes like there first appearance on the elevator establish this fine IMO but it cant be like that all through the movie becouse there have to be a lot of drama going on. If they didnt have a sort of competitive chemistry going on like the whole chase scene in the beginning of the movie than people would REALLY think the acting is wooden and boring but its not thanks to scenes like this. see what i mean?[face_coffee]
     
  17. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 7, 2007

    First off how do you know how GL intended the fans to view the sand people?


    They are not wampas or geonosians, how would that make it ok? What Anakin did was very wrong and someone like Padme should have known that.

    Like I said in AOTC Padme's cool with him killing a bunch off people "to be angry is to be human". However when ROTS rolls round she's not "Not Anakin".

    Very very poor story telling from a bad writer.

     
  18. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007
    ...yea they are sand-people and im not saying that its ok to kill women and kids im saying what George Lucas himself says on the dvd and just why are you so mad at this part of the movie? its anakin starting down the dark path, something that people like you got very mad at GL for NOT showing in TPM and if you red my explanation of how its all necessary and important for his turn above than why do you have such a problem wit it? or are you just ignoring every thing i try to add to this conversation?

    and i know how he intended fans to view them becouse all we ever saw them do was evil things ever since the OT and he basicly says it in that quote i gave. watch the dvd commentary if you really dont believe me.
     
  19. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007
    and padme is not as terrified when he kills the alien monsters as when he kills the human children becouse there IS a difference.

    very very poor interpretation from a fan with narrow views.
     
  20. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2007


    Doesn't say much for Padme does it? It's ok to kill these kids but not those one's.


    Funny my views seems to be in the majority unlike yours :D
     
  21. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007

    what you seem to be ignoring here it the FACT that they are evil,savage,alien monsters totally different than human children. we have never seen them do anything other than evil ever since ANH.

    funny how my views are the same as the story teller maybe thats why im the one who can understand and enjoy the PT and not be bothered by it.:D:D
     
  22. DARTH-SMELLY-FEET

    DARTH-SMELLY-FEET Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2007
    At what point did you see a sand person child do something evil?

    I understand the PT very well. Thats why I don't enjoy it. It's all the bad writing, directing and acting that does it for me. :D
     
  23. obi-rob-kenobi4

    obi-rob-kenobi4 Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 17, 2007
    Yea they sure do look like a nice people, dont you just want to feel bad for them; ruin the relationship with your true love, the hero that saved your entire planet 10 years ago getting him expelled from the jedi order for these people?

    [image=http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/6/6d/Tusken_Attack.jpg]
     
  24. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    Alright, this thread has descending into the same old basher/gusher arguments and is neither going anywhere nor discussing the topic at hand. I do not see discussion of the original topic of Lucas proving wrong the fans in 1999 who felt TPM didn't/wouldn't connect to the Saga. I do see the same old back and forth basher/gusher arguments. I think it's time to let it rest.
     
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