Do you/will you smack your child?

How can a long term study on something like corporal punishment by parents possibly discount the myriad other influences on children and point the blame for adult problems solely on corporal punishment as a child?

 

Because that's what they were looking for?

E_S

 

Chev (and to the rest of you that thing spanking is "abuse"), I just have one question. How do you explain the increased undisciplined behavior of kids in schools now days? It's no big secret that kids thumb their noses at authority, especially in schools, much more than they ever did before. It also seems to be happening at an increasingly younger age. If you don't believe me, just ask any teacher that has been working for 20 years or so (especially at the elementary school age).

From the experience that I've had, and from speaking to a lot of my former teachers, a large part of the explanation for this breakdown in discipline is because students know that they don't have to worry about any form of physical punishment from the teacher or parent. Heck, if a teacher so much as touches a child (even something like grabbing them by the arm and taking them out of the room when they are physically hitting the teacher), they can be sued and lose their job. The ONLY thing that they have left to use for punishment or discpiline is verbal methods. Thus far, as far as I can tell, the verbal approach doesn't work against some kids because they just don't care what the adult has to say. In their cases, maybe they would care if they knew a good spank could be administered. It seemed to work in the past and I think it would still work today. As E_S has said, I was spanked as a kid and it didn't mentally scar me or cause me to feel "abused". I simply knew that if I got out of line bad enough, my butt was going to be sore. It kept me out of a lot of trouble, I can guarantee you that.

 

Heck, as I said, my bum wasn't even sore from it; it was more, I guess, symbolic. As such, I can deal with the odd setback. I never grew up in an environment where I was encouraged to have put my feelings at the forefront of my existence bugger anyone else. Yep, it's all people like us, Vez. Potentially depressed, rapist murderers the lot of us.


E_S

 

So true, so true.

Another point that I was going to make is the consequences of a break down in a child's discipline is far more negative and severe than any sore bottom would be. If a child doesn't learn discipline and respect for authority, they will never be able to survive in the business world (or "real" world as an adult). Put simply, if an employee mouths off to their boss in a similar way that some students mouth off to their teachers/parents, they will be fired on the spot with no questions asked. The same holds true for how you respond to a police officer or other person in authority within our society. If everyone "thumbs their noses" at authority, all you get is chaos IMO. I also think that they will be more likely to get into drugs, alcohol, and crime. If you can't hold a job, it can tend to be a natural consequence to end up in the gutter for many people. Now of course this doesn't apply to all people (so don't claim that I said every person should be spanked when they act up) but it certainly, IMO, does apply to some people that simply wont respond to a good scolding. Some people do respond well to verbal discipline but others clearly do not and physical discipline (ie spanking) is the best thing that they will respond to.

 

[image=http://www.devir.com.br/sincity/imagens/marv.jpg]

Yup, I was smacked as a kid. Didn't hurt me none...

E_S

 

^^^

LOL!

 

How can a long term study on something like corporal punishment by parents possibly discount the myriad other influences on children and point the blame for adult problems solely on corporal punishment as a child?

And how can you assume it was corporal punishment that "straightened out" a kid?

If you were only spanked a few times and you turned out fine (which is what most of the people here seem to be saying), how do you know that's not because it was only a couple of isolated incidents, and that regular use of corporal punishment wouldn't be detrimental to a child's behavior and development?

Vezner, sorry, but even if that's true, I'd blame it more on decreased parental involvement than lack of discipline.

 

Haven't I been making the point that it's too simplistic to say it's just one cause all the time? i.e. smacks come from lazy parents, being spanked leads to X,Y and Z? Oh yeah, I have...

E_S

 

I agree. There are many things that influence a child and simply spanking or not spanking isn't necessary all that needs to be done in disciplining a child. I'm primarily saying that it's wrong to say that spanking is wrong in every situation and it is in no way a sign of abuse whenever it is administered as punishment. Is it possible that spanking can be abusive? Of course! But that doesn't mean all spanking is abusive. It just means that a few nutball parents don't know when they've gone overboard. IMO these cases are more rare than the opponents of spanking are willing to admit and these cases should be dealt with my law enforcement on a case by case basis. As I've said before, spanking can be the best form of discipline that some kids can understand. Not all kids, but I believe that it certainly does apply to some. And for the rest of the kids, I don't think that it's going to scar them at all if it is done appropriately. As I've said, I was spanked as a kid on occasions when I was really bad and it didn't have a negative effect on me. It taught me a lesson that when you break the rules, there are consequences (sometimes painful) that have to be met.

Oh, and yes, I agree that the lack of good parenting is another cause for undisciplined behavior in children.

 

In that case, it's equally simplistic to say that not using corporal punishment leads to behavior problems. Take a look at what your own side is saying before you start getting all patronizing.

What do you do if an adult doesn't see things your way, after repeatedly trying other methods of dealing with them? Are you going to hit me because I refuse to change my point of view?

Edit - Vezner, I think it's more than a few nutball parents. Most parents who use corporal punishment have, at one time or another, lost their tempers and regretted how they reacted.

 

Saren that most people here who were smacked as kids weren't smacked beyond age 10 is lost on you isn't it?

I mean, typically you're trying to create an individual who's used to accepting that society doesn't revolve around that person. A radically cruel concept, I know.

I also pointed out that in my case, I don't hit people. I'm actually concerned about hurting them severely if I do. Which again, doesn't match the profile of being "more likely to hit others".

Also, I thought I admonished you on this point already. Clearly, you didn't heed my advice and talk to your good friend, because I'm on my own side. The arguement isn't neatly cleaved in two, with people falling this way or that. I'm on my own side, tyvm.

E_S

 

In that case, it's equally simplistic to say that not using corporal punishment leads to behavior problems. Take a look at what your own side is saying before you start getting all patronizing.

Was I being patronizing? It certainly wasn't my intention. And again, when did I say that spanking (or rather the lack of spanking) was the only thing that led to behavioral problems? Please read all of my posts before you put words into my mouth.

What do you do if an adult doesn't see things your way, after repeatedly trying other methods of dealing with them? Are you going to hit me because I refuse to change my point of view?

I think that E_S has done a good job in explaining the difference in dealing with a child vs dealing with an adult. In short, IMO, children don't understand things in the same way that adults do and as a result, your comparison doesn't work. Please review over this thread and read the comments that E_S and others have made in this regard. There's no reason to go over old ground again, IMO.

Edit - Vezner, I think it's more than a few nutball parents. Most parents who use corporal punishment have, at one time or another, lost their tempers and regretted how they reacted.

PPOR.

 

I agree. There are many things that influence a child and simply spanking or not spanking isn't necessary all that needs to be done in disciplining a child. I'm primarily saying that it's wrong to say that spanking is wrong in every situation and it is in no way a sign of abuse whenever it is administered as punishment. Is it possible that spanking can be abusive? Of course! But that doesn't mean all spanking is abusive. It just means that a few nutball parents don't know when they've gone overboard. IMO these cases are more rare than the opponents of spanking are willing to admit.

This is almost exactly what I was saying earlier. Spanking can be abusive, just like speech can be abusive, but that doesn't make all spanking abuse, any more than all speech is abuse.

In the same way, it would probably be considered abusive to only feed your child Twinkies, but that doesn't make giving them one Twinkie as a treat abuse.

It is not a matter of absolutes. Yes, there are those who do keep it to the proper limits, but that does not invaolidate the use of corporal punishment. There are always those who exceed the proper limits.

A key point on the page that diz linked to earlier, and that I believe everyone here has missed, when discussing the various studies out there is this:

A number of researchers have attempted to link spanking with problems in the "spankees'" later behavior -- either during childhood, or adulthood. Some seem to have found links between "corporal punishment and lower IQs, teenage delinquency, adult criminality, marital conflict and spousal abuse." 15 Other research papers found no such relationships. As in many studies of this type, objectivity is often diminished; the results frequently confirm the researchers original beliefs.

Some studies contain weaknesses:

Some include subjects who have been physically and/or sexually abused. Abuse victims will generally show a much higher level of psychiatric, behavioral and addiction problems in adulthood. By mixing these victims with others who have only been spanked, the results may be skewed.

None of the studies that we have examined prove a cause-and-effect link between spanking and later problems. A "chicken and egg" situation may exist:
- A pattern of harsh parental discipline might be the root causative factor of problems which emerge later, in adulthood.
- The propensity for later adult problems might have been present during early childhood. This might have made the subjects more prone to behavioral problems as children. This, in turn, may have driven their parents to try spanking as a means of control.

While diz pointed out the part about how studies seem to indicate lower IQs, criminality, etc follow from corporal punishment, he neglected to mention the fact that none of the studies demonstrate a causality relationship between spanking and those effects. In fact, some of the studies focus completely on abuse, rather than simply spanking (see my point above about whether spanking is necessarily abusive).

A key point in their background summary is this:

As in many studies of this type, objectivity is often diminished; the results frequently confirm the researchers original beliefs.

In short, even though there are studies out there to support the claim that spanking has so many harmful effects, their objectivity is questionable, and often the results mirror the preconceptions of the researchers.

Finally, let me ask a very simple question: If spanking is so harmful to children, and can have such serious and harmful effects, then could someone explain the fact that historically, it has been extremely effective, and not led to extremely high rates of violent criminals? "Spare the rod and spoil the child" dates back thousands of years. While that saying comes from the Bible, there are similar proverbs in virtually every other culture.

If it is so harmful, and yet so prevalent in history, then why have we not seen the great harm throughout history on a significant s

 

I definitely wasn't talking about you, Vezner. Apologies for the misunderstanding there.

 

I guess all I have to say is encapsulated in this little fella:

E_S

 

I have been compelled to retract my "lazy parent" comment. It was a generality that gave no room for individuality. I am deeply sorry, and I apologize for offending anyone's parents.

When parents strike their children with no frustration, no anger, and no impatience, but instead strike for love, caring, and an earnest belief that they are helping the child, then I believe these parents are not being lazy.

 

I think we've come to that warm, fuzzy state in the Senate when reasonable people agree to disagree. But where's the fun in that?

 

Fair enough.

I think we've come to that warm, fuzzy state in the Senate when reasonable people agree to disagree. But where's the fun in that?

*blushes...then yawns*

 

I think the irony was lost on someone here, Chev.

Honestly, I can't believe that in this thread, people are practically apologizing for raising their children without slapping. Am I the only one who feels that the world has turned inside out?? I still don't entirely believe it.

 

I don?t think anyone is apologizing for the way they discipline their children. Chev certainly isn?t, and people like me who were disciplined with corporal punishment aren?t asking apologies from our parents.

 

Ah, Crivens! I go and apologize, and end up killin' the threed.

 

Better the thread die, than it become a hug fest.

Kimball Kinnison

 

The only thing that could save this thread at this point would be for someone to publicly smack their child and post a video of it for all to see!

 

I leave that to you then, Vez.