Do you/will you smack your child?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jedi_Jimbo, Sep 19, 2005.

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  1. Vezner Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    You could have said something more simple and eloquent (and to the point), such as: "To clarify, I meant to say that her opinion should be equally considered with all of our opinions."

    That is not what I said or meant. I said that her opinion should be considered (because it would be grossly inappropriate to consider her opinion to be completely irrelevant) but I definately don't hold it on equal grounds with an adult. A 13 year old is still a child and they don't have the experience or the maturity to understand everything on equal grounds as an adult, as much as they think they do. You don't agree with me? Fine. Isn't it great to have the freedom to hold your own opinions on things? ;)

    And I believe I apologized for my generalizations, and am making a concerted effort to improve the level of quality in my posts. How about you?

    When I see that I am having a problem with the quality of my posts, I will make appropriate changes. As of now, I don't feel that I need to make any such changes. I have clearly stated my position and opinions on this topic and on the posts that I have seen and cared to respond to. If you don't like what I have to say, tough. I'm not going to apologize for my position. IMO the only time that anyone should ever have to apologize for stating their opinion is when they either flat out lie and get caught in it or when they accuse someone of saying/doing something that just isn't true and it can be proven.

    Regarding everything else, I'd be happy to discuss it with you via pm, but I won't continue to derail this topic to satisfy your alleged indignation.

    I don't see any reason to do so. As I've said, I have stated my position and I will leave it at that.

    Now let's get this thread back on topic.
  2. CloneKiller Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2005
    star 1
    No way, its wrong, the day I smack my child is the day pigs fly without wings or being thrown.
  3. Special_Fred Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    And why do you believe it is wrong?
  4. dizfactor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    Do you believe it's wrong to smack or spank or otherwise hit non-consenting adults? Same reason.

    Corporal punishment of children is a holdover from the days when women and children were essentially the property of the man of the household, and that man was entitled to beat his wife or children for disciplinary reasons. In the same way most of us now regard wife-beating as a particularly loathesome criminal act, many of us feel that the beating of children is no less so, or perhaps even moreso due to the physical and emotional vulnerability of children.
  5. large_mammal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2003
    star 1
    Diz - there is a world of difference between hitting another adult in anger and using corporal punishment as a learning tool in raising a child.

    But - in my opinion - there's a certain percentage of adults that could use a good smack now and then ---
    and then there are those who enjoy a good spanking now and again as well. ;)

    Meh. I guess it's just different strokes for different folks...
  6. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    But - in my opinion - there's a certain percentage of adults that could use a good smack now and then...

    I don't suppose this would illustrate any violent antisocial behavioral tendencies, would it? Something else to consider regarding this, some people have ASB tendencies, as thoughts and fantasies, but they do not act on them. Some people have ASB tendencies and act on them.

    What's the difference between smacking your child and smacking your dog when either do something wrong?

  7. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    But an adult can understand reason and logical verbal discourse without having to have a physical association. A child cannot.

    Most of the people talking about corporal punishment here recognize that there's a difference between giving a child a corrective smack on the behind when words aren't enough, and beating a child to vent your frustration.

    M. Scott
  8. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    But an adult can understand reason and logical verbal discourse without having to have a physical association. A child cannot.

    My child must be a rational genius then. So must my child's playmates. I'm surrounded by baby geniuses. Should I be frightened?

    Children do not misbehave because they don't understand reason. They misbehave because they allow their desire to do something override their instructions not to do that "something".

    If you believe children do not undersatnd reason, explain top me how a child knows the jingly music outside is the ice cream truck without looking out the window. That, my friend, is an example of logical reasoning.

  9. MariahJSkywalker Poopoo Head

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2005
    star 6
    Yes I will. I do believe in spankings. I think some children(Not all of them) need a bit of physical punishment. I hope when I do become a parent I don't go overboard and beat my children or mistreat them.
  10. large_mammal Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2003
    star 1
    Chev- I don't suppose this would illustrate any violent antisocial behavioral tendencies, would it?

    I suppose it would if I actually walked around smacking people.
    Wanting to do something and acting on it are also two entirely different things.

    Other than spending time ruminating over my violent antisocial behavioral tendencies, I also like to spend time thinking about the mechanics space travel - but that doesn't make me an astronaut.

    Due to the fact that I was raised in an environment of corporal punishment I learned early on that antisocial behavior (hitting others in anger or disgust)is not acceptable or tolerated and there were to be definite consequences for my actions (i.e. a good swat on the behind).

    If you believe children do not undersatnd reason, explain top me how a child knows the jingly music outside is the ice cream truck without looking out the window. That, my friend, is an example of logical reasoning.

    That, my friend, is conditioned response.
  11. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    I think it's great that all of us are so intelligent, yet when we are children, we are incapable of understanding anything that is nopt accompanied by physical pain. It's amazing we learned anything. Are children spanked to correct spelling mistakes? Should they be? Are children spanked when they can't identify a color, or color outside the lines when instructed not to? Should they be?

    Maybe our level of education would be higher if we incorporated corporal punishment as the standard punishment for learning. If what you say is correct, the pain of a swat is all they really universally understand, after all.

  12. DorkmanScott Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Though your argument is reducto ad absurdum, I should point out that the educational system did seem to be more successful when nuns whacked students' knuckles with rulers.

    Now that you mention it, I'm almost curious as to the correlation between the decline of corporal punishment and the decline of literacy, and the rise of cases deemed to be ADD when really they just needed a good knock early on to get them to sit down, shut up, and respect their teachers.

    M. Scott
  13. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    You're too funny. I'd love to read any sort of studies that sugges5t such a correlation.

  14. Bacon164 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2005
    star 7
    Some people at my school could really use a beating by a teacher.

    Many show no respect at all, and the only thing the teachers can do is send them to the office, where they get told to sit in a classroom for an hour after school with an overworked and underpaid and depressed teacher, and they obviously don't mind, as they continue to do it, over and over again. Nothing ever seems to work.

    I hate to bring television into this, but have you ever considered that TV shows from the late fifties and early sixties usually, if not always, showed children sitting at their desks quietly, always raising their hand and wait to be responded to if they are to say a thing?

    Yet today, all TV shows/cartoons I have seen show children wild and jumping around in the classroom, with either A. the teacher sleeping at their desk or B. struggling to keep the classroom in control.

    But the media 'twists' things around so that's not that powerful of an example obviously. It's a bit ironic, IMO.

    Corporal punishment is not the only thing that needs to be used in disciplining a child. I am going to use a variety of methods, introducing corporal punishment early on, and gradually getting rid of it and replacing it with the 'taking away' of possessions as they grow older among other things. I know for a fact that whenever I was given a good spanking, my dad never liked doing it and seemed overly-calm as a matter of fact. If corporal punishment is used in love and compassion, it is a good form of discipline.

    And there is a fine line between beating a child to death and knocking him/her across the face with your fist, then giving a swat on the butt/arm. I don't see it as the remnants of an age when all husbands beat their family members, because I don't think such an age existed in the U.S.A. atleast, though many did beat them.

    And, yes, if you respond to this post, you are arguing with an immature fourteen year old from the South. :p

    *hits reply button with a sense of anxiousness*
  15. Loopster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2000
    star 4
    Why has there been a sudden epidemic of ADD I wonder?

    In regards to whoever said we shouldn't smack children because we don't smack adults, should we also abandon all forms of punishment with adults and try reasoning with them instead? Give that thief a stern talking to Mr. Magistrate! That assault perpetrator? Tell him to not be so naughty!
  16. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Why has there been a sudden epidemic of ADD I wonder?

    If you truly wonder, you should do some research on it.

    In regards to whoever said we shouldn't smack children because we don't smack adults, should we also abandon all forms of punishment with adults and try reasoning with them instead?

    Funny, I don't recall at any time saying my discipline was to sit and reason with my child. I guess anything that isn't beating her is considered "trying to reason with her". So you start out saying spanking will work for some and won't be necessary for others. Then you say that anyone who uses reason not only isn't properly discipling their children in other ways, but that these parents are causing ADD.

    If that were the case, you would see a direct corrolary between children who are not spanked and children who have been disgnosed with ADD.

    Can you provide such case research? By what basis do you make such a profound insinuation?

  17. darth_paul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    Loopster - No one's saying we shouldn't punish children. Just that physical punishment by such means as striking is not appropriate, for any human in society.

    Incidentally, the other forms of punishment we typically use with children -- making them sit in the corner, grounding them, taking away toys -- correspond very neatly with the ways we punish adults, such as prison, house arrest, and depravation of property.

    I object to corporal punishment on general principle. But even more, I object to the double-standard. Children are among the weakest members of society, both physically and legally, and if the law is to show any differentiation, it should be giving them and others in positions of like weakness more protection than the rest of us. Yet it is legally permissible to take actions -- physically aggressive actions -- against a child that could not legally be taken against an adult. Something is fundamentally wrong with this.

    Interestingly enough, it's often cited that the majority of criminals are repeat offenders. There's a clear demonstration of just how good adults are at understanding and responding to "reason and logical discourse."

    -Paul
  18. Loopster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2000
    star 4
    Jesus, I asked a question.

    My post about smacking and adults was simply a facetious way of pointing out the absurdity of comparing the two.
  19. darth_paul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 5
    I don't think it's an absurd comparrison at all. See my parallels among types of punishment above. Also, while you may have been being facetious, what sometimes happens with minor first offenses? The perpetrator is given a warning.

    The two are like, and there's every reason they should be; that's my point.

    -Paul
  20. dizfactor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    Diz - there is a world of difference between hitting another adult in anger and using corporal punishment as a learning tool in raising a child.

    So you say. Even if there were, corporal punishment doesn't actually work as a learning tool. It's been proven again and again, so why do it even if you don't think it's any different?

    But - in my opinion - there's a certain percentage of adults that could use a good smack now and then ---

    And if you gave it to them, what would happen to you?

    and then there are those who enjoy a good spanking now and again as well. wink

    That's a totally different issue, because it's with consent.

    Meh. I guess it's just different strokes for different folks...

    No, it's not. This is not really a "You do things your way, and I'll do them mine" sort of thing, because people are being subjected to physical violence without their consent.

    But an adult can understand reason and logical verbal discourse without having to have a physical association. A child cannot.

    Children are smarter than you think, and in need of less control than you think.

    Most of the people talking about corporal punishment here recognize that there's a difference between giving a child a corrective smack on the behind when words aren't enough, and beating a child to vent your frustration.

    I don't think there is such a difference.

    Though your argument is reducto ad absurdum, I should point out that the educational system did seem to be more successful when nuns whacked students' knuckles with rulers.

    More successful for what purpose? Schools in that era were places where people were being prepped to be agricultural or industrial laborers. I suppose regular beatings would be more successful at prepping people for that sort of life.

    However, we are living in a post-industrial world.

    Why has there been a sudden epidemic of ADD I wonder?

    I don't personally feel there has been. I think people just have a lower tolerance for normal childhood fidgeting.
  21. Loopster Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2000
    star 4
    Do you have kids, diz?
  22. dizfactor Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    Do you have kids, diz?

    Nope.

    Yes, yes, blah blah blah, I'll know better when I have kids, etc etc. People have been telling me "Oh, you'll know better when you're older" all my freaking life, and now I'm 30 and really quite frankly I've been vindicated in my beliefs more and more.

    Plus, of course, I was a kid once and I know how my upbringing affected me, and I know other people who were also kids once and I see how their upbringings affected them. And there's, you know, science.
  23. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Ahem...

    I do have a child. And I did "know better" when we had her. I was of the mindset that we would be using a mild set of corporal punishment when she got older; however all that changed the more I read and the more I saw. My wife and I both realized that there are infinitely more reliable methods of discipline that not only act as punishment, but also serve the second purpose of instructing in proper behavior.

    I've heard the use of spanking here as the end-all means of quickly and ascertively changing child behavior. The simple fact is that this doesn't happen. Spankings do not teach. Spankings do not wholly dissuade repeat offenses. Raising a child is more than a series of single actions and disciplines. It is a slow, arduous, occassionally mind-numbingly frustrating continuous process. As a parent, you teach as much through example as through instruction and interaction. You cannot ignore the former if you are to teach clear lessons to your child.

    Spanking a child even as you tell them not to hit teaches them that the rules is not to hit, but that there are cases when you can hit.

  24. DarthDogbert Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2004
    star 2
    because people are being subjected to physical violence without their consent

    (violence - physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing.)

    First of all, it should not need repeating at this point, but it is entirely unnecessary to refer to spanking as violence. For me to disagree with this statement would make it seem as if I'm advocating violence, which I'm not. Simply use a neutral term (spank, etc) and we can all understand your intent from context.

    Second, I don't think that consent has anything to do with punishment. If I break the law, the gov't has the right to haul me away without my consent. They have the right to subdue me, if necessary, without my consent. It's all a matter of authority. The gov't has God-granted authority to physically discipline offenders for the purpose of peace. I have God-granted authority over my children to physically discipline. It has to be practiced for the purpose of peace, though, and out of love.

    (Just to be clear, while having God-granted authority over my wife, I nowhere have the authority to discipline her.)

    Corporal punishment is not the only thing that needs to be used in disciplining a child. I am going to use a variety of methods, introducing corporal punishment early on, and gradually getting rid of it and replacing it with the 'taking away' of possessions as they grow older among other things. I know for a fact that whenever I was given a good spanking, my dad never liked doing it and seemed overly-calm as a matter of fact. If corporal punishment is used in love and compassion, it is a good form of discipline.
    ...
    And, yes, if you respond to this post, you are arguing with an immature fourteen year old from the South.


    Hey, for an immature 14-year old, you sure seem to be level headed. Considering how you say you were raised, it's no surprise, though. That is exactly how I hope to raise my girls.
  25. Cheveyo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Bacon164: I am going to use a variety of methods, introducing corporal punishment early on, and gradually getting rid of it and replacing it with the 'taking away' of possessions as they grow older among other things.

    DarthDogbert: That is exactly how I hope to raise my girls.

    So, both of you intend to use spanking first, then work your way up to lesser disciplines? As a parent, I see a number of very big flaws in this idea, but I'd like to ask, can you explain how this method of discipline (specifically: spanking first, early on, and then working "up" to non-violent disciplines) is supposed to be effective?

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