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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Do you/will you smack your child?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jedi_Jimbo, Sep 19, 2005.

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  1. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    It just gives a message to children that violence is okay, and that's unacceptable to me.
     
  2. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    I wouldn't use spankings except when it's the only way to prevent danger. Example: 4-year-old is trying to touch a hot stove, or toddler is trying to stick things into a wall socket. Then reasoning and time-outs aren't going to be immediate enough; the child must associate (dangerous action) with something very unpleasant. Pain (NOT injury) will work most of the time. Stove = Pain = Bad = Don't Go Near It.

    This only works when the child's personality is that of an agreeable nature. When I was young, my grandmother used to watch me after school. One day (when I was but a wee free lad--lacking blue tattoos of course--Terry Pratchett joke), Grandma was make supper involving squash. I wanted to help. I went to touch the stove, and she swatted my hand. "It's too hot; you'll hurt yourself."

    I said, "Okay," and moved on. Then I came back and tried to touch the stove again. Again my hand was swatted. I said okay and moved on.

    We sat down for supper and my grandmother told me, "don't eat it yet; it's still very hot." I said okay, and went to touch my squash (tactile experimentation being what it is). I got my hand swatted and was told to wait.

    I couple seconds later, curiosity overcame me and I stuck my finger in the squash...

    After the screaming and crying subsided, Grandma chopped off a piece of aloe and swabbed the tip of my index. It soon had blistered and ballooned out to twice its size. Eventually (later in the week), the blister popped and my finger healed. What do you suppose taught me the most about staying clear of hot objects?

    Punishment as a deterrent... there are far better ways to teach. When we took our daughter to the local fire station to tour the big trucks and to familiarize her with what fire fighters looked like in action*, we were given an excellent and non-violent way to get the point across about looking both ways before crossing the street.

    Buy a watermelon, let your child rap on it, feeling how hard it is on the outside. Then put in your driveway, and run it over. Explain to your kids that cars move very fast, and are very heavy. There's a longer schpeel that goes with it, but I won't bore you here with the details. We did this for our daughter, and she got the point. The way it didn't frighten her, and it didn't give her pain. But it got the point across so well that she now stops my wife and I in the parking lot if she thinks we haven't looked both ways first.

    DarthKarde, that's an excellent point. Physical Punshment is but one attribute of a much larger concern and debate about parenting.



     
  3. Armenian_Jedi

    Armenian_Jedi Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Mar 14, 2003
    who says violence isn't ok?

    Isn't that a matter of opinion?



    I would hope that if I had a son, that he'd at least be a bit violent...
     
  4. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    I would hope that if I had a son, that he'd at least be a bit violent...

    o_O

    Why?


     
  5. cal_silverstar

    cal_silverstar Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 15, 2002
    Well, we often go by our own experiences. When I was a child, smacking my parents back was not an issue. There was enough fear there that I wouldn?t dare even think about it. I knew that was the wrong thing to do. Most of all, I didn?t want to make my parents, especially my father angry. It wasn?t fear as much as I didn?t want to displease my parents. I would say they had the perfect combination of tough love.

    Since I don?t have kids, I don?t have a personal point of reference, but I know that I when I do, I will raise them the way my parents raised me.
     
  6. son_of_the_tear

    son_of_the_tear Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 23, 1999
    Whoa... weak parenting skills?

    My parents were amazing. I could not have asked for better parents. They were just great and taught me well... and yes, sometimes when I got out of line I'd get a spank on the bum or a light slap on the arm.

    That was not violence at all. If they beat me... that's violence. But giving me a smack on the arse is hardly violence.

    And I turned out just fine.

    Too manty parents try to be their kid's friend these days.

    As my dad would tell me when I would get a smart mouth:

    'I'm your dad, not your buddy"

    And no, that doesn't mean that we didn't hang out and bond, etc, etc. We did. But I was very clear where the line was and that he was my father first, my friend second.

     
  7. VoijaRisa

    VoijaRisa Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2002
    I'm with Cheveyo 100% on this one. I've always been much more afraid of my mother giving me the Look or using the Voice which meant I knew I wasn't going to be watching TV for a week. That was much more effective than the short term pain of a smack on the ass.
     
  8. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    Cheveyo, I'm curious, what would have prevented you from having your unfortunate squash burning accident?

    Corporal punishment in a loving environment is the best way to teach children to respect you in my opinion. Respect will then transform to obedience, in most situations.

     
  9. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    The best way to teach children respect?

    I simply can't comprehend that at all.

    How is it that so many people are able to raise respectful children without ever laying a hand on them?
     
  10. VoijaRisa

    VoijaRisa Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 12, 2002
    Is blind obediance really what you want?
     
  11. Neo-Paladin

    Neo-Paladin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2004
    Isn't growing up a process by which one learns that actions have consequences? If I spank my kids they that from me. If they learn that from me the lesson is apt to be less painful and the consequences will be less lasting than if they learn it from the world at large. The application of this line of thought is somewhat limited, but I belive there is a place for it in parenting.
     
  12. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    Cheveyo, I'm curious, what would have prevented you from having your unfortunate squash burning accident?

    Experience. That's what taught me the lesson. A spanking every time I do something wrong will eventually mean absolutely nothing to me... unless you make the spanking more harsh to get my attention. That might work for a time or two, but then what, when even that doesn't get through to me?

    Corporal punishment in a loving environment is the best way to teach children to respect you in my opinion.

    Absolutely, categorically false. It doesn't teach respect. It teaches fear. There is a very big difference between the two. Eventually, that fear can turn against you, and you'll have more on your hands than just a kid with his hands in the cookie jar. inflicting pain will never earn respect. It breeds animosity and loathing, which will then take the shape of either outward rebellion or meek internalization, depending on the nature of the child.

    Respect will then transform to obedience, in most situations. There is no respect. There will be obedience for a time, though. Until spanking don't work anymore. Then what?

    The problem with this idea is that, as a parent, I don't want to teach blind obedience. My wife and I are intent on teaching our daughter how to think, and through that thought process find the correct choices to make.

    We ask her to clean her room and she says no, or ignores us, something is taken away--whether it be a privilege or a toy, etc. She has learned through repetition that when this happens, she will not get that privilege or toy back for some time, even after she does what she is told. That is the consequence.

    Likewise, her positive behavior never goes unrecognized. This is called positive reinforcement.




     
  13. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    Absolutely, categorically false. It doesn't teach respect. It teaches fear. There is a very big difference between the two. Eventually, that fear can turn against you, and you'll have more on your hands than just a kid with his hands in the cookie jar. inflicting pain will never earn respect. It breeds animosity and loathing, which will then take the shape of either outward rebellion or meek internalization, depending on the nature of the child.

    In my experience it is absolutely, categorically correct. It absolutely, categorically does not teach fear. My kids don't fear me, they respect and love me. They do as I ask them now, I haven't had the need to punish my kids since they were about 3 or 4.

    I have seen children that parents have tried the reasoning approach and it hasn't worked. I've seen parents try corporal punishment and it hasn't worked. The key is consistancy. Kids are poorly behaved and disrespectful if they get away with bad behaviour some times and are punished others. I did not let my kids get away with misbehaviour when they were small, they now don't misbehave much and if they do I tell them to knock it off and they stop when told.

    I personally don't think you can reason with a 2 or 3 year old kid. Eventually they begin to ignore you as there is no consequence for their actions. I've seen that type of kid many times.



     
  14. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    And generalisations, what are they the weak sign of?

    ;)

    I teach at the moment - and never again, I assure you. 'Tis a way to make money in Taiwan but oh no, never again.

    As a child, if I was smacked I learned my lesson, and I never dare raised a hand to my parents because my father would have justly beat the **** out of me for it. I learned from the act - which should be more about establishing rules, boundaries and humiliating rather than hurting - which made me who I am. My brother didn't, and just got smacked more. My first cousins are the same; the girl is like me (albeit 16 years younger ;)), but her brother is a monster.

    Children are not adults. And to match all your parenting experience I have 42 students to teach, some of whom need a damned good whack. You can't reason or bargain with them - they're kids for Chrissakes! - you have to be the discipline figure.

    So basically, you need to find a situation that works. If smacking is producing nothing, then clearly you don't continue with it. But you shouldn't suggest smacking is weak parenting. Kids need to view you as authority figures first, then friends when they grow up and have learned respect.

    Balance, Che! It's all about balance! :p ;)

    E+S
     
  15. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Cheveyo, you've outlined your own system of discipline for children. In it, you acknowledge the usefulness of both reinforcement (ex rewarding your daughter's good actions) and punishment (ex taking away priveleges).

    The problem, though, is that there is no real reason that using light "smacking" on a very occasional basis can't fulfill the same role of punishment. The fact is, someoen could just as easily end their defense of smacking with "that is the punishment." While it requires intelligent application, so does the taking away of priveleges. What you've done here is jumped to the worst case scenario. Again, one could very easily think of a tremendously stupid application of your "denying priveleges" technique and talk about the worst case scenario in that situation. It wouldn't really be better.

    So I see you as having made arguments for your system, but not strong arguments against smacking.

     
  16. Suzuki_Akira

    Suzuki_Akira Jedi Master star 7

    Registered:
    May 13, 2003
    I probably will, yes. I don't see anything wrong it morally and, in what little experience I have watching parents, it's useful when used in moderation.
     
  17. Cheveyo

    Cheveyo Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 29, 2001
    And generalisations, what are they the weak sign of?

    Generalizations (generalisations for you non-americans :p) are weak when they do not apply to everyone. The psychological effect of physical violence in the name of punishment applies to all.

    As a child, if I was smacked I learned my lesson, and I never dare raised a hand to my parents because my father would have justly beat the **** out of me for it. I learned from the act - which should be more about establishing rules, boundaries and humiliating rather than hurting - which made me who I am. My brother didn't, and just got smacked more.

    And did the "more smacking" change you brother's behavior?

    Children are not adults. And to match all your parenting experience I have 42 students to teach, some of whom need a damned good whack. You can't reason or bargain with them - they're kids for Chrissakes! - you have to be the discipline figure.

    True, kids are not adults; nor do I believe they should be treated as such.
    False, a "discipline figure" does not have to use violence.

    Kids are kids, as you say, and as kids, they have a basic approach to most things. Much of it includes materialism and direct cause/effect actions.

    Balance, Che! It's all about balance!

    I agree in balance. I do not agree that violence is an element of that balance. It teaches the wrong lesson altogether.

    The problem, though, is that there is no real reason that using light "smacking" on a very occasional basis can't fulfill the same role of punishment. The fact is, someoen could just as easily end their defense of smacking with "that is the punishment." While it requires intelligent application, so does the taking away of priveleges. What you've done here is jumped to the worst case scenario. Again, one could very easily think of a tremendously stupid application of your "denying priveleges" technique and talk about the worst case scenario in that situation. It wouldn't really be better.

    So I see you as having made arguments for your system, but not strong arguments against smacking.


    Perhaps you see this because you approve of "smacking". I say that because there are successful methods of corrective discipline (that, in my experiences, yield far greater results than corporal punishment--ie, long lasting) that do not incorporate harming my child physically or emotionally, There is no reason on earth for me to strike my daughter.

    I also have to say that the only time I was swatted or smacked was when my parents were so completely frustrated or mad that they lost control of their own discipline. Such punishment never stopped me from disobeying them, but it did make me question their love for me on occassion.

    I have never prescribed to the "I beat you because I love you" mantra. IMO, that's just weak parenting, because the parent couldn't find a better way to discipline, lacked continual follow-through, and often lost control of their own anger.

    And E_S, don't throw the occupation card at me. You don't want to know what my wife's occupation is. You think I'm a screaming liberal now! ;)





     
  18. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    The problem, though, is that there is no real reason that using light "smacking" on a very occasional basis can't fulfill the same role of punishment. The fact is, someoen could just as easily end their defense of smacking with "that is the punishment." While it requires intelligent application, so does the taking away of priveleges. What you've done here is jumped to the worst case scenario. Again, one could very easily think of a tremendously stupid application of your "denying priveleges" technique and talk about the worst case scenario in that situation. It wouldn't really be better.

    So I see you as having made arguments for your system, but not strong arguments against smacking.


    Perhaps you see this because you approve of "smacking". I say that because there are successful methods of corrective discipline (that, in my experiences, yield far greater results than corporal punishment--ie, long lasting) that do not incorporate harming my child physically or emotionally, There is no reason on earth for me to strike my daughter.

    Again though, Cheveyo, the existence of other successful methods does not mean that this one is inherently unsuccessful or useless. Along similar lines, neither physical nor emotional harm are necessarily inherent to the practice--no moreso than they are inherent to your strategy of denying priveleges.

    You can't just start with the given that this will do some terrible damage to the child. Or at least, you can't present your argument that way. While it very well could certain combinations of privelege denial could be equally devastating. This discussion shouldn't be about solely about worse case scenarios and remotely potential dangers, but about the intelligent application of each theory, and its most probable results under those circumstances.





    [/quote]
     
  19. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    I've smacked my kids, but I've never, ever harmed them.
     
  20. Cyprusg

    Cyprusg Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Bad parents spank regularly. It's really as simple as that, if you take the time to communicate with your child, give them a good moral foundation, lead by example, you WILL NOT have to regularly resort to spanking.

    But on the other hand, although I don't plan on spanking my children, I won't ever take that out of the equation. There are certain things that I will not stand for as a parent, particularly talking back to me or the mother, making fun of another kid, being disrespectful, etc.. etc.. If I have to spank a child more than 3 times in a lifetime, I think that's probably a failure on my part as a parent.

    One thing I've noticed from a lot of parents that spank is that they yell a lot. I think a big reason for that is that kids will build up a threshold to yelling, and then when the parents yell at a child and the child no longer listens they think it's acceptable to spank. When in reality when you yell at your kid a lot, it loses it's signifance, no longer is the kid like "holy crap, mom is yelling at me", they're more like "yeah yeah yeah, keep yelling I don't care". Plus when you yell at your kid a lot you're just inviting hostility, kids are like sponges and will pick up on every aspect of your behavior, positive or negative.

    But anyway, I think the point is if you're spanking your child frequently you've failed as a parent.
     
  21. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    For anyone interested, the last thread on this subject is a pretty short, fairly interesting read, and gets into some of the territory we're covering here. I may jump in later, but won't put my two cents into this thread right now; the old thtread should make it abundantly clear where I stand anyway.

    -Paul
     
  22. JediStocky

    JediStocky Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2001
    We have a 3.5 yr old girl and she gets smacked when she deserves it, liike brushing her teeth with toilet water when we aren't looking, or drinking the bubble bath, or eating castor oil cream.

    We are a fair household. By that I mean that what she gets smacked for, she can smack us if we do that same thing. We don't want her to think we have double standards. As an example, there were times when she'd have pen all over her hands. She get a smack. If we come home from work and we've written a note on the back of our hands (as you do), she gets to smack our hands. It's only fair.
     
  23. Jabba-wocky

    Jabba-wocky Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    May 4, 2003
    Wow, I really mangled the mark-ups on that one. My internet going down didn't help the editing situation either. Sorry about that, everyone.

    In any case, Cyrpusg pretty much nailed it, so you can just skip my post and read his.
     
  24. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    He's right to a point, but it cuts both ways. Bad parents don't discipline their children also.
     
  25. LostOnHoth

    LostOnHoth Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2000
    I don't think you can draw any conclusions as to whether somebody has "failed" as a parent soleley on the basis of how often they spank their child.

    What exactly is it to "fail" as a parent anyway ? - my definition would be to fail to develop any emotional bond with your child to the point where your child does not feel loved by you and does not feel secure and/or a complete failure by you as a parent to provide physical and emotional needs.

    Frequency of smacking does not necessarily form part of this equation IMO.
     
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