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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Do you/will you smack your child?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Jedi_Jimbo, Sep 19, 2005.

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  1. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    And go make me some PIE! ;)
     
  2. SmoovBillyDee

    SmoovBillyDee Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    If there are massive advances in a field of medicine between the time you were a child and the time you have children of your own, do you resent being told about them? You (and I) were raised in a more ignorant time, by people who didn't understand how unhealthy corporal punishment was. We've made progress since then, and I find it sad that you're so resistant to hearing about it.

    I'm sure at some point someone objected when people started hearing that drilling holes in people's heads is actually harmful and won't let out evil spirits that cause insanity, but that didn't mean we had to let it continue because it was traditional.


    Let's keep it on a medical analogy level for a second. This is not the difference between drilling holes in a head and giving a pill. This is the difference between Tylenol and Advil. Both work. Pick which one you're going to use, but "use as directed." Both methods can, I repeat, CAN work!

    My method works

    Statistically speaking, no, it doesn't. Pretty much every bit of research done on the topic points to a strong correlation between corporal punishment and sharply increased rates of bad behavior, future criminality, etc.

    I'm sorry, but you're abusing your children.


    In my lifetime, I've seen more evidence to point towards the opposite of those statistics. So what am I going to choose? A method I've seen work or something the "experts" say I should use? Experience will always carry more weight.
     
  3. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm saying it's your opinion; but I think your opinion is utterly incorrect that smacking is automatically bad parenting. That's far too binary for my liking.

    You know, I wonder if since you think maintaining a double standard by saying "do as I say not as I do" is wrong, will you give your daughter an equal vote in matters of family importance? After all, if there's no reason to create a clear delineation between you and your children, why not?

    Che, they're children. They need blacks and whites, and you need to teach them the right way to do things regardless of how "equal" the treatment is. I'm sorry, no 5 year old has a right to understand why things are different; they'll get that when they're older and can appreicate it.

    You can raise you kids as you wish, obviously; but you cannot get surprised when you suggest many users (and their parents), are bad, lazy parents for smacking. Sorry mate, you forfeited that right. ;)

    E_S
     
  4. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    anidanami124: Statistically speaking they can take all there research and thorw it out the window because it does not mean a thing.

    J-Rod: If you're blind, go ahead and believe statistics. But those of us who are still sighted know differently.


    This, right here, is why this country is taking the planet down the drain. People believe what they want to believe, and have no respect for evidence, science, or careful scholarship.

    "No spanking" became the buzz in the early 80's. By the late 80's schools started posting signs saying "No Weapons." By the 90's many schools had metal detectors.

    That has more to do with paranoia and media sensationalism than it does about actual changes in behavior. A few high-profile cases do not a broad trend make.

    The difference is corporal punishment isn't harmful and it also works.

    PPOR.

    Let's keep it on a medical analogy level for a second. This is not the difference between drilling holes in a head and giving a pill. This is the difference between Tylenol and Advil. Both work. Pick which one you're going to use, but "use as directed." Both methods can, I repeat, CAN work!

    PPOR.

    You can raise you kids as you wish, obviously; but you cannot get surprised when you suggest many users (and their parents), are bad, lazy parents for smacking.

    Well, no, obviously he shouldn't be surprised, but that doesn't make him any less correct. All else being equal (an important qualifier), parents who hit their kids are being bad, lazy, and, frankly, abusive parents.
     
  5. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    That has more to do with paranoia and media sensationalism than it does about actual changes in behavior. A few high-profile cases do not a broad trend make.

    Yeah? What about the weapons and drugs in the lockers to the point that the lockers have been removed.

    Also, what about the way the little 14 year olds are dressing? Bare tummies, low jeans, etc. Parents have just flat lost control over their children.
     
  6. Loopster

    Loopster Jedi Youngling star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 26, 2000
    Craziest use of PPOR ever.

    The proof is my experience. I'm not retracting a damn thing.
     
  7. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Yeah? What about the weapons and drugs in the lockers to the point that the lockers have been removed.

    Teenage drug use, overall, has been up and down a little bit, but basically flat, and it's overblown as a concern anyway. Violence levels have gone down steadily for decades. That's the bottom line. Anything else is incidental.

    Also, what about the way the little 14 year olds are dressing? Bare tummies, low jeans, etc. Parents have just flat lost control over their children.

    I think you're presuming that all parents have a problem with their kids dressing that way, and are simply unable to do anything about it. I think certain parents freak out about teenager's clothing because they have completely inappropriate ideas about how much control they should have over their offspring. I think most parents realize that it's not only trivial, but it's a perfectly normal and healthy expression and exploration of sexuality and identity. Teenagers need to be free to express themselves through dress, and they need to be free to experiment sexually, as long as they're armed with proper information.
     
  8. Jedi_Jimbo

    Jedi_Jimbo Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2004
    I have to disagree.
    I do not remember any of my mates getting stabbed or shot when I was in school.
    Now you hear about it every other day.
    I have no idea where these figures are coming from, but these people obviously need to pull their heads out of their asses and see the real story.
    Smacking and not smacking aside kids are getting away with murder, in some cases quite literally.

    IMO spanking will stop my kids EVER reaching that point.
    And I do not agree with psychological punishment. Taking away a favorite toy?
    Making them stand in the corner?
    Mental abuse surely.

    But at the end of the day it depends on the child.
    Sometimes with certain children no form of punishment will work.
     
  9. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    I think certain parents freak out about teenager's clothing because they have completely inappropriate ideas about how much control they should have over their offspring.

    I think it is you that may have the wrong idea. To let a 14 year old dress in a mannor that turns my head as a 37 year old man is stupid and irresponsible. Not to mention shocking as I work my way to her face and see she is only a baby!

    You can "arm" her with all the info you want. If a man wants to manipulate her, most girls that age will be defenceless.
     
  10. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    I do not remember any of my mates getting stabbed or shot when I was in school.
    Now you hear about it every other day.


    Welcome to the 24-hour news cycle. Got to fill the hours somehow.

    I have no idea where these figures are coming from, but these people obviously need to pull their heads out of their asses and see the real story.

    The figures are the real story. If your personal experiences (and those helpfully provided to you by the media) don't match up with what's actually happening, it's you who needs to re-evaluate, not the facts.

    IMO spanking will stop my kids EVER reaching that point.

    "IMO?" This isn't really a matter of opinion. You can test different methods of child-rearing with psychological studies matched up with disciplinary records and such, and your opinion is unsupported by the available evidence.

    I think it is you that may have the wrong idea. To let a 14 year old dress in a mannor that turns my head as a 37 year old man is stupid and irresponsible. Not to mention shocking as I work my way to her face and see she is only a baby!

    14-year olds aren't babies. In any other culture in human history, they'd be having babies and starting their own households. Obviously, educational demands and such make that undesirable now, but that's why we have birth control and abortion.

    You can "arm" her with all the info you want. If a man wants to manipulate her, most girls that age will be defenceless.

    By phrasing it as "defenseless" you're presuming that most girls are interested in staying virgins, and that they only have sex because some man forces or manipulates them into doing so. That, quite frankly, is sexist BS. Young women pursue sex for their own reasons as much as young men do.

    Moreover, I've never known any high school girls who are just dying to hop into bed with middle-aged pervs. It doesn't happen very often, frankly. If and when it does happen (and it's always happened to some degree or another), as long as they're armed with birth control, condoms and information about STD transmission, they can protect themselves from long-term negative consequences.
     
  11. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Moreover, I've never known any high school girls who are just dying to hop into bed with middle-aged pervs. It doesn't happen very often, frankly. If and when it does happen (and it's always happened to some degree or another), as long as they're armed with birth control, condoms and information about STD transmission, they can protect themselves from long-term negative consequences.

    Uncalled for mate. How in the Hell do you think that underage suburban children from good homes end up on the street strung out and workin' for a pimp? It happens everyday.

    From my old days, I used to know someone who did it. He'd "turn a girl out" inside of a week. Usually 3 days. Just 'cause he knew what she wanted better than she did. She can't be "armed" with knowedge that can only be had with age and wisdom.
     
  12. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    How in the Hell do you think that underage suburban children from good homes end up on the street strung out and workin' for a pimp? It happens everyday.

    Yes, it does, and it's usually because they were abused by their parents. That's why the vast majority of runaways run away, and most underage hookers are runaways. It has zero to do with consensual teenage sex.
     
  13. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    That's why the vast majority of runaways run away, and most underage hookers are runaways.

    Nononono. I said good homes. Not runaways.
     
  14. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    That doesn't happen often enough to be significant from a policy perspective.
     
  15. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    That doesn't happen often enough to be significant from a policy perspective.

    Maybe not in LA. But many, many, many of them from the rest of the country didn't become runaways 'til they were "turned out." They were regular kids 'til the pimp came along.

    Hell, every year 20/20, 60 Minutes etc do shows about it.
     
  16. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    By phrasing it as "defenseless" you're presuming that most girls are interested in staying virgins, and that they only have sex because some man forces or manipulates them into doing so. That, quite frankly, is sexist BS. Young women pursue sex for their own reasons as much as young men do.

    Ya know waht? I need to address this too. If I wanted to have sex with a 14 year-old, it would not be in her best intrest. Reguardless of whether she realises it or not, she does not want to have sex with me.

    But she would be defenseless against it.

    Hope that cleared it up.
     
  17. dizfactor

    dizfactor Jedi Knight star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 12, 2002
    Maybe not in LA. But many, many, many of them from the rest of the country didn't become runaways 'til they were "turned out." They were regular kids 'til the pimp came along.

    That's an urban legend. It simply does not happen in real life. The facts are these: Close to 100% of prostitutes under age 18 are runaways. Over 80% of runaways have completely dysfunctional families, most notably ones where there's a long-term history of physical and sexual abuse and/or severe alcohol or drug abuse by parents. The other 20% come from short-term family issues, like a death or nasty divorce. Over 75% of teenage prostitutes were sexually abused by a family member as children at some point in their lives. About half of runaways end up getting involved in prostitution within 2-3 days of running away.

    The idea that pimps everywhere are turning good little kids all over America from good little homes where no one's getting hit, getting raped, or getting smashed into streetwalkers is insulting and ludicrous.

    Hell, every year 20/20, 60 Minutes etc do shows about it.

    20/20 and 60 Minutes are guilty of a lot of sensationalism and bad reporting.

    If I wanted to have sex with a 14 year-old, it would not be in her best intrest.

    Agreed. However, if she takes reasonable precautions, it's unlikely to be a life-threatening mistake if she does end up sleeping with someone she probably shouldn't.

    Reguardless of whether she realises it or not, she does not want to have sex with me.

    Disagreed. There's a difference between not being in someone's best interests, and not wanting to do it. I want to eat Taco Bell even though it's not in my best interests. Mistakes do happen, people do dumb things, and people learn from them. As a society, we need to make sure that we can prevent a momentary mistake from totally screwing up people's lives.

    Anyway, it's a moot point, because most teenage girls want to have sex with teenaged boys, or maybe even college boys, but they sure as hell don't want to sleep with anyone older than that in most cases. Most of those that do have serious psychological issues, often related to childhood sexual abuse. Very few teenage girls who aren't psychologically damaged to begin with have any real interest in men older than their early 20s.

    But she would be defenseless against it.

    Totally disagreed. I've known many, many teenage girls who have quite successfully fended off advances from older guys. A girl I knew shot down Willie Nelson when she was 15 and he was waaay too old.
     
  18. Sarendipity

    Sarendipity Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2004
    I definitely agree with everything that Cheveyo has said. It worries me that he's just about the only one here arguing against corporal punishment.

    I take care of two small boys, and I'm currently taking a child psychology class too. And I'm disappointed to see so much scoffing at the psychology behind this. But most importantly, you're all ignoring the simple fact that hitting your kids is completely unnecessary. Those of you who see the merit in Cheveyo's method are the ones I really worry about - See below.

    It's been said in this thread already, but I feel the need to repeat it. There are kids all over the place who have never been hit at all, and who have turned out fine. In fact, I'd bet most of them have turned out better for it. When you hit someone, it's a quick fix. It's robbing them of the chance to know and think about why they shouldn't do what they're doing, and instead saying "do what I say or else." Are you trying to teach them blind obedience, or would you rather they learn what's right and wrong for themselves? When the boys I watch do something they shouldn't, their parents smack them. Nothing more than you're talking about in this thread - a slap on the hand here, a spanking there. Now the older one hits his brother, and gets confused when he's punished for it. And does he listen to his parents? No, not at all. Quite the opposite.

    On the other hand, when he does something wrong with me, I squat down to eye level and talk to him. "You hurt the kitty when you pull her tail. Do you want to hurt the kitty?" He gets a very concentrating look on his face and says no. And he goes back and pets the cat nicely. The worst thing anyone who deals with kids can do - whether it be as a parent or teacher or whatever else - is underestimate how smart they are. This boy is two years old and he understands perfectly. They may not have the most advanced reasoning skills, but that's because they have to learn them. It's your job to help with that. Furthermore, guilt works. It works brilliantly. And it teaches them empathy, which is something our society desperately lacks nowadays. I could have told the kid that the kitty will scratch him if he pulls her tail, but that subtle difference sends another message. One says don't do it because you'll get hurt. The other teaches him to think about how what he does affects others.

    When reasoning isn't enough, punishments like "time out" work if you use them right. Brattiness is more often a result of parents who threaten and don't follow through, or who give in when it's too much trouble to deal with the kid. Good parenting takes patience. Time and effort, and most importantly, consistency. Smacking the kid and telling them to know their place? Why have kids at all? If you're just looking for something to take out your aggression on, maybe what you really need is a punching bag. It won't backtalk you either. Just goes back to my long-held belief that most people should not be parents.

    As for me, I was spanked a couple of times as a kid. It had less impact on me than being made to sit down and feel guilty about what I did, and I feel like I turned out well in spite of it rather than because of it. Spankings, as Cheveyo has said, are not the rational decision of a parent who wants her children to learn. It's action taken in anger, in the heat of the moment. All parents lose their tempers, of course, but if you decide from the beginning that you'll never hit a child, it's easy to stick to it. Once you start it becomes a quick fix. That's all it is, and the truth is it works as well as most quick fixes - it doesn't. What's the difference between abuse and punishment? There is none. It's the difference of degrees and nothing else, and of using punishment as an excuse or justification. It's the difference between smacking them once because you're mad and beating their head against a wall because you're mad. Same mindset.

    Welcome to the Senate. If you get in a habit of calling people violent Neandertha
     
  19. Jedi_Jimbo

    Jedi_Jimbo Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2004
    I may be wrong but I get the impression people think I mean 'smack' and that's it.
    This is not the case, I believe it has been said by some already, but I believe that you should explain why you have spanked the kid.
    If you just smack and leave it at that then that is pointless.
    You have to explain why.

    Another question, what do you do when all your explaining, bargaining, reasoning and what not has failed and the kid still goes ahead and does something it shouldn't?

     
  20. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    I agree with everything this fine lady above me said.

    Spankings are unnecessary discipline, and don't achieve anything that other methods cannot also achieve (and more effectively and efficiently).
     
  21. Sarendipity

    Sarendipity Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2004
    Let me answer that with another question: What do you do if you spank them and they still do it?
     
  22. feenicks

    feenicks Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 11, 2005
    I have smacked my children, and just by the way I feel about it now, I'm sure I won't be smacking my grandchildren. I've learned there's better ways to get across to people, and the worst way to do it is to smack them down either physically or emotionally. But, that's just my opinion. Everyone has to decide for themselves and do the best they can for their kids.

    What do you do if you spank them and they still do it?

    Then it's not working.
     
  23. SmoovBillyDee

    SmoovBillyDee Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 2, 2002
    Let's keep it on a medical analogy level for a second. This is not the difference between drilling holes in a head and giving a pill. This is the difference between Tylenol and Advil. Both work. Pick which one you're going to use, but "use as directed." Both methods can, I repeat, CAN work!

    PPOR.


    PPOR? Oh, please tell me you're joking. Haven't you been paying attention to the other posts made by myself and others?

    Ok, you want proof that both can work? Smacking: Myself, my mother, my father, my brothers, my aunts, my uncles, my cousins. How about my friends? Yep, them too. We can even go to the users here and look at people like E_S and Loopster. That's far enough evidence for me. I see what's worked in my own life. I see that people can and do turn out just fine with this sort of discipline.

    As for the otherside, I'll use Cheveyo as an example. Seems that his child(ren) (don't know how many he has) are just fine.

    Like I said, both approaches CAN work.
     
  24. Jedi_Jimbo

    Jedi_Jimbo Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Good point.
    But I have not known a child to not respond to the spanking.
    I have known children to not respond to reason though.

    So I don't know.
    Maybe I would try the extreme and try the reasoning approach.
     
  25. Sarendipity

    Sarendipity Jedi Youngling star 2

    Registered:
    Apr 12, 2004
    But how do you know it was only by being hit that you turned out as you did? I'd assume the corporal punishments were part of a wider system of discipline. If you removed just the spankings (or smackings, or whatever), would you really be worse off? If Cheveyo's way proves it can be done without hitting, then what justifies hitting at all?
     
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