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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Amph Doctor Who Discussion (Russell T. Davies returns)

Discussion in 'Community' started by Darth Guy, Jan 3, 2013.

  1. Ulicus

    Ulicus Lapsed Moderator star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 24, 2005
    I recall JoinTheSchwarz telling you all to move on from this increasingly toxic topic. Please do so. When the discussion stops being about the show and becomes about each other, it's time to stop.

    We are all here, after all, to indulge in our shared appreciation for one of greatest individuals to ever journey through time in a box.

     
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  2. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Fair enough. We were told to keep it civil. Though, on the assumption that the topic of a woman playing The Doctor is still fair game I would love to hear from ol' V re: why we are all so wrong.

    Why should a woman play The Doctor, and why is it so terrible to think it's wrong?
     
  3. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Your question is malformed. Why not go back to your previous arguments against change, then read the comments I made regarding them. If you want more details regarding a certain point, quote what I said and I'll be happy to discuss it.
     
  4. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    So... you're not going to answer. Okay.
     
  5. Rew

    Rew Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2008
    I believe that the role of the Doctor should be open to any actor who can portray him well--woman or man, white or PoC. The character is an alien with the ability to change his entire body and (to an extent) personality. Why should he be limited to changing into a white man every time? I'm not saying it's necessary in the next regeneration for the Doctor to change into a woman, but I think the possibility should be open. It is, after all, canon now that Time Lords can change genders. And also, from what I gather, gender identity is much more fluid for Time Lords/Ladies than it is for earthly humans. (But no matter which race or gender, the Doctor must always be British--I mean, let's not get carried away now! :p )

    Also, in fairness, I don't consider those who oppose my viewpoint on a female Doctor to be misogynists. :)
     
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  6. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Is it, though? Was it ever portrayed on screen as such? Up until now all the Time Lords were clearly either male or female and behaved accordingly.
     
  7. Rew

    Rew Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2008
    Granted I am basing that more off an interview I read recently. (I'll have to see if I can dig it up.)

    Even so, the Master seemed to transition quite smoothly from being a man all his lives into a woman without any hiccups, so far as the viewer can tell. (Though I freely admit we didn't see how she initially adjusted after her regeneration.) Likewise, the Eleventh momentarily thought he was a girl at first, as if this were a normal thing that could happen.
     
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  8. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    And there's The Corsair, too.

    Mar17swgirl
    Up until whenever the plot demanded it, or the writers arbitrarily decreed it, Time Lords had only one life, only one heart, and behaved accordingly. All explanations for revelations (ie, changes, retcons) regarding Time Lord culture and biology have been deliberately vague and obscure. All previous changes have been sudden, too. The writing in this case is arguably superior because precedents were set years before the change took place.

    I think I gave an adequate response to your loaded question.
     
  9. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    Then start from wherever you want, in answer to a question written to your own specifications, telling us why you think what you think! None of this referring me back to our previous exchanges - all of which are loaded weapons. Just start from scratch and write it down. Go on.
     
  10. Point Given

    Point Given Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Dec 12, 2006
    Both JtS and Uli told you guys to stop it. Please take it to PM if you wish to continue your line of discussion.
     
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  11. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    But they told them five years from now.
     
  12. TrandoJedi

    TrandoJedi Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 4, 2011
    I want new Doctor Who nao.
     
  13. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    The original request was to keep it civil. Uli reflected that in his comments. Honestly, neither of my questions were loaded. I was simply trying to move the discussion back to the show. So I'm going to respond to Rew with my own position.

    Why is it wrong for an alien with the ability to change their entire body to be restricted to one gender? Particularly when there will be other members of the same species of the opposite gender. The science-fiction that all of us take in on a regular basis is full of rules that, if viewed entirely objectively and rationally, are not defensible. Arbitrary, even. Yet we follow them because they are the rules. V was right to point out that the hard rules of Time Lord physiology have - over the years - been kept pretty vague. I think this is more to do with not really caring (in the general way that creators don't care as much as fans) than any grand plan to provide future generations with wriggle-room, but the outcome is the same. Still, The Doctor has been a male character for 50 years, and so has The Master for as many years as he's been failing to win at anything. Romana and The Rani were clearly female. It seems to me, therefore, that a strong precedent exists. Time Lords are male and female. It has clearly worked over the years, and I think it's sufficiently ingrained in the shows DNA to be considered (as much as anything can be in Doctor Who) a rule.

    The problem, in my opinion, is that NuWho has been gradually chipping away at this. The groundwork was laid for a female Master, and is still being laid for a female Doctor. Proponents of the change will point to this as canon. They say that this makes the change perfectly fine - and from a canonical point of view they are absolutely right. The question is, are the changes themselves right? I say no. I say it was a mistake to begin digging up those foundations.

    The Doctor is a hero to men and women. Men and women can both learn from him and look up to him. Much of the best of the male gender is encapsulated in his behaviour and beliefs. If these things weren't true, then there would be a problem worth fixing. A problem to which casting a woman might be a solution (after all, we'd have a broken character). Of course, there is no problem and we do not have a broken character. We have a wonderful one. A wonderful, time-worn, male role model. Something worth keeping, I'd say. Progress, then, does not occur by laying down one thing and replacing it with another; progress occurs by bringing something else to the table. That is where the opportunity lies to improve female representation in Doctor Who (which absolutely needs a kick up the ass). New characters. Characters (or even character) of equal standing to The Doctor. Where does the show go with a woman playing The Doctor that it can't with a man? Since supporters of the change are convinced it shouldn't be a big deal I'd say nowhere. Where can it go with an awesome female Time Lord and an awesome male Time Lord? Many places. Trouble is, this is the tough option. It means updating the structure of the show (although for me that would be fine as it's getting stale). The easy - lazy - option is to parachute women into the existing roles whilst taking a marker men to the shows history.

    I believe that the role of The Doctor should be open to anyone who fits the brief - which should, after 50 years, be a male. The role of female Time Lords should be open to anyone who fits that brief - a female. The problem is that there aren't any being written. What a great place to be (not). I think people look at The Doctor being a man for 50 years and see it as a mistake that needs correcting. I see it as a lovely tradition in fiction, worth preserving, and one that can be built upon by enshrining some new female characters in canon. If only the show could be arsed. Don't keep changing your clothes to accommodate the attitudes of the time. Change your wardrobe.

    There is nothing wrong with an exclusively male lead character, and I begin to think that amongst fans it's an objection to that fact that drives the campaign to see a woman play The Doctor, and within the production itself a fear of it.
     
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  14. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
  15. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Both contained unjustified assumptions, so both were loaded questions.

    I've said a number of times that I'd be happy to defend arguments that I've actually made, that's still the case.

    Re: Writers not caring as much as fans: While DW has had its share of hacks over the years, it's never really had a producer or script editor who didn't take their jobs seriously, or who didn't care (even when JNT wanted to quit, he still went above and beyond the call of duty, especially when it came to fan stuff). Fanatical 'true' fans who labour over every detail of every frame and every sample, okay fine, nobody takes anything as seriously as them, but fans in general? No chance. Especially these days, where writers actually want to write for the show because they're long time fans.

    Re: 50 years: It's only an accident of spacetime that we're here having this particular discussion now. We could have been having a near identical discussion 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about any change in DW lore. For 100% of the shows history at any point, there was strong precedence for the status quo being a steadfast 'rule' - but change itself is part of the status quo. It's a solid rule of the show that changes in continuity, format, and lore will always occur; it's a most demonstrable rule that the longer the show goes on, the more changes occur, so the argument from tradition/nostalgia/fear-of-change seems blinkered.

    Right in what way? Morally? Ethically? Logically?

    Continuity, lore and format being subject to constant revision are traditions with deeper foundations than the details of fictional alien biology.

    Are you suggesting that status would be compromised if he became she? How and why might that status change if he swapped sex/gender once in a while?
    Really? Please define 'the best of the male gender', I have a feeling you're being quite selective regarding his behaviour and beliefs, too.
    This logic is flawed. It relies on unstated and questionable assumptions, and displays a deeply patriarchal way of thinking... Change isn't something that only needs to occur in relation to problem solving, and not all problem solving requires practical change (and not all problems are practical). Sometimes the best solution to a perceived problem is to change your own perception.
    The selective way you define him as a male role model is interesting. Here's a guy who ran away from the consequences of his undisclosed criminal actions, kidnapped teachers, abandoned his granddaughter to an uncertain fate, abandoned Dodo in the care of strangers while she slept, who manipulated and discarded countless women across space and time, committed theft, murder, genocide, laid waste to entire planets. He's an aloof psychopath who keeps human pets, mostly women, to show off how clever he is. I don't identify this history as a problem as such, so please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. He doesn't only represent 'the best' of the stereotypical masculine traits, and it's a bit crazy to limit this enigmatic alien character to conform to human gender stereotypes anyway.

    Haven't you already stated that there's practically nothing about The Doctor's character that relies on him being a man? Isn't the problem, simply put, that you feel uncomfortable with this particular change? You can't say because it's a badly written arbitrary change for changes' sake, because all previous retcons have been exactly that. That's what this show does, then claims it will explain later, but doesn't.
    It's not a binary option, nor are those mutually exclusive options, so your logic is based on flawed assumptions. Changing the gender of a character could be described using either of those options, too.
    Which is pretty much the direction the show has been taking since Ace was the companion. Ace, Rose, Sarah Jane Mk3, River, Missy, all in their own ways were on equal footing with the Doctor in terms of narrative focus or prominence, but being secondary/supporting characters means they can never be the focus of the show itself for too long. Before them were examples of such characters too, Romana, SJS Mk1 (when Dicks didn't have too much influence on the script), Liz was a decent attempt (but Pertwee and Dicks didn't like having a smart girl), Barbara had her moments, and of course Susan was meant to be a much stronger character than she was eventually written to be.

    Companions are still expository devices, but no longer merely so. The situation has been improving exponentially since the Langford disaster (which was actually quite a long step back for DW following Peri, Tegan, Nyssa, etc, who themselves were not quite shining role models with detailed back stories, but at least had a realism and an actual introduction).
    The show could do wonderful things if led by a woman that it can't do while being led by a man (and obviously vice versa). Most obviously it could provide a high profile leading role for female actors of a certain age, who otherwise have practically nowhere to go.

    In terms of story telling, just imagine all those historical stories without the privileged male Doctor swanning around, what a different form those stories would have had to have taken. There's something quaintly Shakespearean too, with the whole boys playing girls being boys playing girls angle. Even just having the option of a female Master and/or Doctor provides a range of creative directions that did not exist before the idea was introduced, and introduces a big juicy (one might even say saucy) enigma regarding Time Lord reproduction. Would you rather have this or Cartmel's crappy 'looms' back?

    But where did the show go when the writers decided he could regenerate? What could the show do that it hadn't done before?

    Even trivial changes, such as the binary vascular system and 13 life limit afforded many more narrative opportunities than they were intended to, and have had far reaching consequences.

    Question: What about the structure of the show would need to change to accommodate a female lead? You've got me confused over this one.

    Why? Are you scared that there's a lack of positive male role models in popular fiction? Why are you upset with this carefully signposted, uncharacteristically gentle change? Should carefully crafted continuity be set aside to suit your personal discomfort at the idea of The Doctor losing his meat and two veg?

    I'd say River alone discredits this argument, she's one of the most complex, fun and intriguingly written characters in the shows history. I don't think you can legitimately paint any of the post-Ace companions with the pre-Ace companion brush; even characters deliberately written to be 'weak' or meek have been well realised, given proper back stories, and have a sense of realism bestowed upon them. The show isn't doing Dodo, Jo or even Leela any more.

    There is nothing wrong with an exclusively male lead at all. It would seem odd to cast a female Bond or Holmes or Robin Hood, but none of those people are shape shifting immortal aliens. You've not demonstrated what's wrong with having a gender-fluid lead character at all, though.There should be space for such a role in Doctor Who - in what other show could it possibly happen?
     
  16. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    Up to Kill the Moon on my season 8 rewatch...
     
  17. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    V2. The questions were not loaded, but even if you felt they were all you needed do was put down your thoughts. I'm absolutely certain that, in a heartbeat, you'd have been able to return the questions to neutral states (as you see it) and proceed from there. Only you chose not to... keen only to return to a previous discussion. An unhelpful and retrograde step. I'm therefore quite surprised you felt the urge to respond to my post at all. At least you can be counted on to mention The Doctor's genitals. It's all about them for you, isn't it? You try incessantly to characterise me as sexist, misogynistic, patriarchal, or whatever else... but the truth is I am none of these things. You are simply obsessed with pointing the finger. I support increased female representation in Doctor Who (which needs to be new Time Ladies), and would like to see similar actions across popular fiction. I've been pretty clear on this point (or in the general area) throughout... so to cast me as any of those things based upon my preference to see one character remain male is pretty stupid.

    For the record, casting both Holmes and Watson as women would totally work.
     
  18. Random Comments

    Random Comments Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2012
    For the record, I'm pretty sure Fem!Holmes has been done, and (Joan) Watson definitely has been.
    Also, Merida from Brave=female Robin Hood.
    Sorta.
     
  19. Diggy

    Diggy Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Has monotonous been done. Is it done?
     
  20. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    I've given you my thoughts a number of times, at great length and in increasing detail. You still manage to misrepresent my point of view, you invent arguments and imagine incessant personal attacks. Accusing me of being obsessed with pointing the finger! You seem intent on having a personal argument based on insults rather than discussing the issues. Maybe you're just confusing being insulted with being wrong.

    You demanded I restate my position, yet when directed to re-read my actual words and ask specific questions you accused me of being retrograde... Now you seem to be trying to claim some semblance of 'victory' because I didn't answer your redundant leading questions, while ignoring the bleedin' dissertation I just wrote. You're trying to dismiss an obvious misrepresentation of my arguments as 'stupid' without providing any reason at all. Do you only want to waste my time?
     
  21. Everton

    Everton Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Jul 18, 2003
    I'm certainly not imagining your point of view. Nor am I misrepresenting it. You have, throughout, been perfectly liberal with your insults and perfectly happy to place me into whichever basket-case suits you. I asked to start again for a very good reason. We didn't need to go back. You declined the offer, only responding when given something to attack. Indeed, I didn't ask for you to come back at me and neither did I expect it - so intent were you on returning to our previous skirmishes. You did, though, but that was a waste of your own time and so leaving it alone at this point is, I will admit, a rather satisfying outcome. I'm not drawing a line in order to claim victory (that's clearly impossible for either of us), but I see no reason why I should engage in another cycle of debate with you. Not worth it.
     
  22. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    i think jeremy clarkson should be the next doctor
     
  23. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    Finished rewatch of series 8. A few thoughts

    1) Danny was a waste of time
    2) Clara needs to go as soon as possible
    3) In the Forest of the Night has taken the crown from A Town Called Mercy
    4) Missy is excellent
     
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  24. V-2

    V-2 Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Is this delusion or simply not being capable of understanding how an argument works?

    At no point was there any onus on me to 'start from scratch' by restating my position. Restating my position would have been going back. Why don't you understand that?

    NOPE.

    Are you very young?

    I didn't decline the 'offer', I kept my initial offer open - that is, if there's literally any aspect of my argument that you don't understand (which is clearly the whole thing), you should a) quote it and b) ask me what I meant. This is productive because it sidesteps your obvious misunderstandings and tendency to take personal offence when it's explained how you're wrong.

    Wait, you've tried to debate with me? Where?

    It seems obvious from your comments that you're a troubled soul seeking some kind of validation through getting people upset on the internet. You have my pity.

    Your first and only warning from me. Do not make personal attacks, do not make flaming comments about medical state or conditions.
     
  25. Darth Punk

    Darth Punk JCC Manager star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 25, 2013
    altogether now...
     
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