Amph [Doctor Who] Series 7 Discussion - SPOILERS

I think at least one post or two with spoiler tags after a fresh ep could serve at the very least a useful warning to those who have not seen it yet and wish to remain unspoiled to get the hell out of the thread until they see it. After that of course it's, "read at your own peril"

 

On a side note: I wonder if Victorian!Latimer is related to Timothy Latimer?

 

Wonderful insight SLG.

EDIT: 'Latimer' definitely made me wonder if there was a relation.

 

Okay, I loved the episode and the chemistry between the Dr. and Clara is superb. Could be another Rose/9th doctor in the making, minus the awful Rose! I nevwer got into the whole Dr./River thing, especially after we saw why/how they were really "married". I am confused as to when this happens in the timeline, because that's just all crazy now. Is it pre-Amy/Rory/River?

 

Really liked this one. It's definitely better than The Doctor, The Widow, and The Wardrobe, not sure it's quite as good as A Christmas Carol. But it's still great.

Love the new companion, TARDIS, opening, the Doctor is just as good as ever (loved his Sherlock Holmes).

I do agree with solojones. The plot was incredibly muddled. Which kind of ticks me off. I'll have to watch it again to know for sure, but yeah, a really great Christmas episode. Good 8/10 for me.

 

I will post more about my thoughts (they are many) when I have more time. Family abound at Christmas time and all that jazz. I will say this, though... that's my new favourite Christmas special.

EDIT: MATT'S FACE IN THOSE AWESOME NEW OPENING TITLES OMFG!!!!

 

I hope Clara beats Rory's death record. That would be cool.

 

Plot was incredibly muddled? It seemed to me to be one of the more basic plots. It's a character episode, not a story one.

And I am pleased that Everton is pleased. I thought he would be.

 

That was a bloody brilliant episode. I'm currently incapable of posting a coherent review (that's Everton's job ), so I'll just post random thoughts on the episode:

- Richard E. Grant made a really good villain. As did Sir Ian McKellen.
- Doctor Scrooge was delightfully grumpy.
- Vastra, Jenny and Strax need their own spinoff NOW. Seriously. Strax is hysterical, and I like that his "resurrection" was explained. (Though I do wonder where - and when - exactly did Vastra and Jenny get married. Surely that wouldn't be that easy in Victorian England? )
- The opening credits. Oh my God, the opening credits. Beautifully retro, beautifully Classic Who. And they have the star field and Matt's face!
- Clara is amazing and wonderful and brilliant. I LOVE that we have a properly clever companion again. I love how she takes charge - effectively taking the Doctor's role (about which he naturally complains ). Already I can't wait for the series proper to see her in action.
- The Stairway to Heaven TARDIS was magical. MAGICAL.
- I know I said it already, but the evil snowmen are CREEPY.
- Liz White! Now we only need Dean Andrews and PHILLIP GLENISTER and the migration of the Life on Mars cast to Doctor Who will be complete.
- I loved the Mary Poppins version of Clara.
- The new TARDIS interior is gorgeous. I loved the Ponds era interior, but it was too Earthly (which is not necessarily a bad thing). However, this one really does look like it was designed on Gallifrey - it's cool, it's alien, it has a very Classic Who vibe. This and the new opening titles make me EXTREMELY excited for the 50th anniversary.
- "It's smaller on the outside!" - Brilliant. I knew she would say it like that when the Doctor prompted her to "say it", and then she went out to check.
- The One Word Test (which looked an awful lot like a job interview for the position of the Doctor's companion ) was brilliant. As were Clara's answers. "Pond." GENIUS. How does Moffat do it?!
- Doctor as Sherlock Holmes = brilliance and amazingness. Loved all the subtle references to "Sherlock" and the Doctor's hilariously bad deductions.
- Clara's death was sad and touching. I kept hoping that somehow the Doctor would save her, because I assumed she (as the new companion) would survive. Clearly, I was wrong. It's interesting how it turns out that she's the same woman in different places and times - as a Dalek in the Asylum, as a Victorian barmaid/nanny, and (as we saw in the epilogue of this episode), as a 21st century girl. We're yet to meet the last one properly, but I believe they're all the same personality, all equally smart and clever and brilliant and taking charge (Dalek Oswin and Victorian Clara certainly were). I guess the theme spanning the second half of Series 7 will be figuring out who exactly Clara Oswin Oswald is. The birth date of 23rd November is certainly suspicious and could be a CLUE.

I still need to rewatch the episode to catch all the details (and to bask in the beauty and wonderfulness of the new opening credits), but this is definitely the best Christmas Special of NuWho for me, and currently stands at 9/10.

 

Mar, you are spot on in everything you say. I could not agree more. Like like like

EDIT: Although the Memory Worm deserves a mention. Brilliant stuff!

 

It's been made clear in interviews with Matt, Jenna, and Moffat (and in Matt's acting) that it's post - Angels in Manhattan and thus at the very least post - Amy/Rory. I think a case could be made that it's also post - River going to the Library, but we'll have to see on that score.

 

The Great Intelligence was using the little kid to create Snowmen to take control of the world...why did he need the kid? How did the family crying change everything to tears?

 

Clara crying did that, not the family. It was already shown that Clara had the ability to affect the snow. And we only saw Clara's tears.

And the "Why did he need the kid"? Who cares - that's a typical Who plotline thing. It's not incredibly muddled. As I said, it's not about the story. It's about the characters.

 

I thought the one word answer interview thing was pretty stupid. I also hate how everything keeps coming back to Amy Pond, its getting as bad as Rose. I thought for sure the one word answer to convince the doctor to help her was going to be "Children".

 

"Pond" was a bit grating, I grant you. But the whole one word interview thing was superb writing.

 

And yet when I point out episodes that are clearly character episodes and not that interested in plots, many people here (you especially) tend to ignore that and point out plot points that you don't like. So I'm just a bit baffled as to why you've changed your tune now.

As I said and as you all know, the plot stuff isn't nearly as important to me as I prefer plot to be a vehicle for revealing things about the characters. And in that sense, the plot in this one worked really well (especially with regards to Clara's roll in things). However, I just wanted to note that I didn't think this plot was all that great. It didn't really make sense why everything ended so quickly. The bad guys were incredibly underutilized. It all just sort of came to nothing and was resolved in an unclear and easy manner.

Again, I don't really care as much about that, and that's why I still loved this episode. Because the character stuff was very good. I'm just saying that those of you who always jump down the throat of really good episodes because the plots are muddled really baffle me with your love of this episode.

I seriously never know just from watching an episode whether it will be well liked by people here or not. Because a lot of episodes that I think are among the best (e.g. Waters of Mars), I come to find you guys dislike for completely unknown reasons. I mean, that's one that is pure, really unique, really reflective and thoughtful character exploration. But evidently it's horrible and this one, which also has a worse plot, is the best thing ever? I am just genuinely baffled.

Frankly I thought the plots of both other Eleven Christmas Specials were better. I still think A Christmas Carol is the overall best one. But I'm super excited for JLC and where they've going with her, so I enjoyed the ep a lot.

 

Tell me once when I've complained about a plot hole over a character issue.

I've ALWAYS been about the characters. That's why I hated the wild west episode (out of character) and why I love the Craig episodes. It's all about the characters for me.

So again, why "me especially"?

 

Well all I care about is characters and you seem to hate most the episodes I like and vice versa, which is why I mention you especially. A Town Called Mercy is a good example, yes. Because I don't think that was out of character at all, I think it was an exploration of the Doctor's darker side, of the established fact of the show that he's killed millions and is haunted by that. To me that was a great episode for people focused on the characters. So like I said, I never have any idea what you're going to consider good.

But it isn't just you. As I've said in the countdown thread all along the way (btw is that ever going to finish? This has been going on a year...), I am utterly baffled as to why some of my favorite Tennant episodes that are very character-driven are evidently so hated by you guys on the basis usually of plots or villains people find uncompelling.

 

There are few episodes I "dislike". I agree that there are episodes I like that others dislike and vice versa. But I don't have a problem with that. It would be dull if we all thought the same. But I do take exception to your implication that I am not consistent with my opinions. And I still don't know why you singled me out. I am happy to discuss my thoughts on any and all episodes, but I consider it unfair and inaccurate to imply that my opinions are self-contradictory. But please don't get me started on Mercy. For that episode, I will stick with you liked it and I didn't.

 

Well you were very vocal about disliking series 7.1, which is why I mention you specifically. I don't really see how this ep was any different than those in tone or approach. I'm not saying your opinions are wrong, I'm just saying that I never understand your tastes.

But as I said, going through the countdown baffled me with regards to other people's tastes as well.

 

My main reason for disliking 7.1 was character based, in that they'd written a full 5 episodes knowing that the companions were going to be written out, and decided to write 5 "standalone" episodes rather than create anything longstanding and character-based. It was tremendously disjointed.

So I disliked the series, but not necessarily the episodes. Asylum was good, Dinosaurs was fab, Mercy was.....dire. Power of three was strained. Manhatten was long overdue.

So the problem with 7.1 was trying to make standalone episodes. It was the equivalent of Series 4 specials, but condensed into a month, rather than spread over a year. That's the main reason it failed (for me)

But that said, this latest episode has refueled my love for the series and I can't wait to see what happens next with the characters.

 

Hurm. I seem to be wrong about the tears thing, though I had just watched it. I recalled a line like 'It's Christmas Eve and an entire family is crying." or something wheaeabouts. But going to wiki indicates exactly what you said Hal.

Though I still think it's clunky that all Clara had to do was die and cry and whoosh everything is destroyed.

 

Ahh I gotcha Hal. I really wasn't trying to be critical, I was just confused. As to Mercy we obviously just have to disagree on that. But as far as 7.1 goes, I felt like they had a couple stories they'd probably always wanted to do with the Ponds and now suddenly they only had a few eps left because Karen wanted to leave.

And it seemed to me that a lot of fans were complaining that S5 and S6 were too serialized, that they'd like more one off adventures than series long arcs. Personally I like a mixture of the two. And I felt like they had that with 7.1. Because the plots and settings were separate, but I thought they very much dealt with the character issues in a way that belt to the end. They showed the Ponds struggling with the growing balance of real life and running off with the Doctor. And that ultimately was Amy's final decision. She could have kept going around with the Doctor but instead she chose to go to Rory and a totally normal life. The series also dealt with the Doctor's darkness and how much worse it gets when he's been alone, as in Mercy. Which is the same thing that was addressed in The Snowmen.

 

I have mixed feelings about the episode - some of it was rather funny and imaginative, some of it made me roll my eyes (the kiss and the general flirting, plus the sentimentality).

I liked the new titles and I like the new control room (which has a very Pertwee era vibe, I think).

 

I didn't like the kissing. I get that people flirt with the Doctor and that Oswin already had, but what about River? It's one if the things that made me wonder if this is after she's gone. But I would also hope that we would actually see her demise and that this would be at such a time as to allow her to be in the 50th. It's already enough of a bummer that the Ponds won't be in it. Plus I was really hoping River would cross paths with Ten again.