Amph [Doctor Who] Series 7 Discussion - SPOILERS

Discussion in 'Community' started by Mar17swgirl, May 29, 2009.

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  1. Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Jack is not really a separate species - he was made special (can never die) because R*** brought him back from the dead when she had the power of the Time Vortex inside her, but couldn't control it (as the Doctor said), so she brought him back permanently.

    Clara/Oswin is something totally different, though. I don't think she's a Time Lady, because if she were, she would simply regenerate into a new body when she died - but she is the same person (both looks and personality wise) in different times. And I don't think she retains her memories from her "previous lives", because otherwise in "Asylum" she would have remembered in her adventure in "Snowmen" (given that "Asylum" takes place in the future). But there are certain subconscious things that remain the same - soufflés, for instance. I'd like to think she's something completely new, completely unique - and I believe the story arc of Series 7 part 2 (or at least part of the story arc) will be figuring out exactly who and what is she and why does she keep appearing in different times.

    I do agree that she has wonderful chemistry with Matt. :)
  2. darthcaedus1138 Jedi Master

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    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    FTFY
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  3. solojones Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    I agree that Matt and JLC have good chemistry from what we've seen so far, however I would absolutely disagree that he didn't have chemistry with the Ponds. Eh? Please don't tell me this is going to be one of those annoying retcon things amongst fans where everyone loved the Ponds but now people are going to like JLC more and claim that they always hated the Ponds. Ugh.

    Also, I guess I'm the only person who doesn't find Jenny and Vastra at all compelling. The one word convo bit was a nice scene, so I guess Vastra served a nice purpose in this ep. But I would have absolutely no interest in a spinoff. I feel like those characters just amount to an excuse for them to have one-note lesbian characters in the show. It's not interesting to me at all.
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  4. Rosslcopter Jedi Knight

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    I agree. Jenny and Vastra are stupid. The way they treat it, I feel like they're not even actually lesbians. They're just pretending to be for the attention.
  5. solojones Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    It just comes off as a cheap "lol hot lesbians" joke.
  6. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    It's not as though Doctor Who has been great with its portrayals of major non-heterosexual characters anyway. There's Jack. I mean, him wanting to bang everything in sight is fine for humor's sake, but it does have rather unfortunate implications regarding bisexuality and plays into stereotypes as far as promiscuity goes. And this was from RTD, who himself is not heterosexual (yeah, I know Moffat created the character, but RTD takes the bisexual thing up to 11 in Torchwood).
  7. solojones Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    I mean, I think it's fine to have one character such as Jack like that. Because I always attributed his constant flirtation with everyone as having more to do with 1) him personally 2) the time period he's from, in which everyone is supposed to be more sexually forward and open, not just him.

    But yeah, it seems like they try to be inclusive. And I do appreciate the attempt, but unfortunately a lot of the time it doesn't quite work. And in the case of gay female characters, they seem unable to fall into the bro trap of kind of snickering because it's "hot".
  8. Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    And it's not like Moffat can't write normal lesbian characters who aren't meant to be "lol hot lesbians" joke - look at Miranda and Min in "Jekyll". They were proper three-dimensional characters, not defined just by their sexuality, and the only humour was an "old married couple" kind of teasing between them that was rather endearing.
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  9. Juliet316 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2005
    star 8
    I think Matt has (hopefully it's not in past tense) great chemistry with Alex, which helps make River/Doctor work for me (far more in River's first ep with Eleven than she had with Tennant in the Library episodes - which made me sad). However, I never did think he had as much chemistry with Amy. It just seemed to be a bit forced, especially in S5 and only ever really started clicking when Rory was added to the mix. It got better towards the end of the Ponds time, but between Amy and Eleven it just felt like old friends who've known each other for a long time and are finally comfortable with each other to me. I still like the Ponds, but there is an instant spark between Matt and JLC that in a lot of ways reminds me a lot of Tate and Tennant's run.
  10. SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    I didn't hate the Pond, just the Williams. Although he got better as he went on and had more to do besides be a wet blanket 3rd wheel.

    I'm hoping Moffat doesn't go overboard with the "question" joke as he seemed to in the Christmas Special. The whole thing about it during S6 was that it was something to be avoided (a question apparently so bad it could defeat the Silence, no sure why), so throwing it around all the time seems to be diluting that.

    As for The Silence themselves, I assume they'll be back at the end of this series if only to give it a "Big Bad" kind of finale. I can't see them being important enough for the 50th Anniversary as the main villain unless the hihger power they are working for is revealed then.
  11. Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    I've always thought that this was exactly what the relationship between Amy and Eleven was supposed to be, so... what's the problem again? :p

    But I do agree with you that there's an instant spark between Clara/Oswin and Eleven that resembles Donna/Ten. But that's the beauty of changing companions (and Doctors) in Who - you always get a different relationship, different kind of chemistry between the Doctor and his companion. If it was the same thing over and over, it would get boring.
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  12. halibut Ex-Mod and 2015 Celebrity Deadpool Winner

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    star 8
    What an odd conclusion given the premise of the show :p
  13. Everton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    I always felt there were two sides to The Doctor's relationship with Amy. The first is when he's alone with her. So this would be much of series five. The 'old friends' vibe was very strong (albeit one with a huge twelve year gap) because they've known of each other since Amy was a girl. The second is when he's with Amy and Rory. So series six and seven, part one. As much as The Doctor is the superior intellect, there was always a slight parents / child thing going on. They looked after him. Not practically, of course, or intellectually, but rather like a comfort blanket. Theirs was a relationship he wanted on his radar. The Doctor could act quite childishly if the mood took him, and they would deal with it. It explains (in part) his reaction to their departure and the (supposed) length of time it persisted. He 'acted up', but didn't have Amy and Rory there to absorb it. Indeed, I often think the fact that The Doctor first met Amy when she was so young (and he 'wasn't done yet') imprinted a kind of behavioural template on him that was set to 'young' (hence the ongoing emotional significance of something so absurd as fishfingers and custard). He would regularly slip back into it. Even default to it sometimes. So... without the Ponds, he chose Vastra and Jenny as surrogates. He hoped (as I said in my review) that they would bring him around. They did. In fact they exceeded his expectations by identifying his actual needs (rather than what he thought he wanted) by bringing him Clara.

    It's this second dynamic (parents / child) that I think will stand in stark contrast with the relationship The Doctor will develop with Clara. I hope she will force him to act like an adult, act like an intellectual, more of the time. Not least because she offers genuine intellectual competition. The Doctor will not be able to indulge himself. She'll rip him to shreds if he does. No time for that. He'll need to be on his toes all the time. Not only will Clara be a great companion on her own merits (her personality and her mystery), but she'll also bring the best out of The Doctor. A different challenge for Matt, too. :cool: I love his Doctor, but he's going to change a bit, I think. This will be, definitively, a relationship between two adults. There is an instant spark between Clara and The Doctor - mostly (I think) because The Doctor suddenly realises what he's been missing. Competition!

    None of this diminishes my love for Amy and Rory. I loved them, just as I expect to love Clara.
    Last edited by Everton, Dec 31, 2012
  14. darthcaedus1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Well put Everton. I feel the same way. I can't wait to see more of her. Kind of wondering how long the mystery will last for. Will it culminate in the 50th, or end this series? Will it be ongoing as long as the companion is around, or will it wrap up and then she'll just be a normal companion?

    If it's the 50th one, she's probably
    lolspeculation (open)
    The Rani

    :p
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  15. Ulicus Lit'ari [Literature Manager]

    Manager
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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    "What does Jenna bring to it? It’s surprising just how much the show changes with a new co-star. The Doctor is quite different with her, and the way you watch them is quite different. You watched the Eleventh Doctor and Amy arrive together. It’s like they grew up in the same sandpit, playing. They felt not quite like equals – the Doctor never feels like an equal to his companion – but you knew them equally well and they were equally important to each other. They formed around each other. And one of the interesting things about writing the Doctor is that he’s so responsive to the people around him. It’s almost like left on his own his personality would slowly disintegrate. He becomes what people want him to be, a little bit. So he’s Amy’s Raggedy Doctor.

    With a different companion he becomes a slightly different man. He dresses differently. The mere fact that he’s so much taller than her suddenly reveals that Matt Smith is very tall, not, as people assume, about average height, because he was about the same height as Karen. He’s the senior man, not in the sense that he’s more important but he’s the one you know already, and he’s training up a new one, as it were. In these five episodes the Doctor is practically the adopted son of Amy and Rory. He’s gone from being the wonderful man from space – Space Gandalf, as he wants to be – to being that troublesome kid that they try and keep under control. They even talked about getting babysitters for him in one unfortunately cut scene. They love him, but they know he’s a big kid, they know they have to look out for him, check he eats and all that. Whereas with the new companion he’s back to being the mysterious spacefarer." - Moffat, SFX interview

    So, in short, Moffat agrees with @Everton on this issue. ;)
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  16. Everton Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2003
    star 10
    I should stress that I don't read SFX. :p
  17. Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    Judging by "The Snowmen", Vastra and Jenny are totally the Doctor's babysitters. :p
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  18. Darth Guy Chosen One

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    star 10
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  19. darthcaedus1138 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 13, 2007
    star 5
    Good idea. Though I would like to see them pair off into groups.
  20. Mar17swgirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 26, 2000
    star 7
    That's a pretty neat idea! :D
  21. SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2003
    star 8
    Yeah, that would certainly be interesting and not mean some dodgy impersonations of the first 3 Doctors.

    Although personally I don't want to see old-looking Doctors I would rather we go back no further than McCoy. But if we must have Tom Baker and Co, this sort of storyline would be good
  22. Ulicus Lit'ari [Literature Manager]

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    star 6
    You are not. I found their appearance in A Good Man Goes to War fairly intriguing, but based on the strength of their most recent showing I'd happily never see them again.
  23. solojones Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    That is a pretty neat idea for how to handle a mutli-Doctor story. It would definitely take care of the aging issue. It would definitely require a lot of work in the imaginary 'what if _____ never happened' department.

    The only thing about it I would be disappointed about is that I really want to see Ten and Eleven together for a more extended period of time, just because they're my favorites :p Well, without recasting the first doctor, that is.

    The other problem is that they couldn't do that notion without Eccleston.


    I didn't say he couldn't, I just said he hadn't in this case. Moffat's one of my all-time favorite writers, but that doesn't mean he's flawless.
    Last edited by solojones, Jan 3, 2013
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  24. Ulicus Lit'ari [Literature Manager]

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    Easy fix: use Richard E. Grant or Rowan Atkinson's Ninth Doctors, instead! Or both of them! :D

    Though Eccleston doesn't sound anywhere near as outright opposed to the idea of a return as he used to. "If I told you, I'd have to shoot you" is not, by any means, a "no". I imagine Moffat's been pulling out several stops to try and get him on board for some sort of involvement. Assuming he even has a multi-Doctor story in mind, of course.
    Last edited by Ulicus, Jan 3, 2013
  25. solojones Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, but he's clearly not going out of his way to be helpful either. If you want a job you don't generally tend to just outright say you've not been watching the show and basically just don't care.
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