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Senate Does "Absolute Truth" exist?

Discussion in 'Community' started by poor yorick, Feb 12, 2014.

  1. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Force Ghost star 8

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    How is this not a topic where people just post their opinions on it? There is no evidence to present. No experiments to run. No studies. The question itself isn't even fully defined.
     
  2. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    It's philosophy, Vivec. I know scientists hate it but it's a time honoured tradition! :p
     
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  3. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 9, 2011
    EVERYONE is a sinner, plain and simple. No if, ands, or buts.

    "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."

    When I was 11, I went to VBS at our church that summer as I had done since I was younger. I paid close attention to the discussions each night, and one night after coming home, I sat down with Dad and Mom and asked them questions about Jesus - why He came to earth, why He endured death on the cross, ect. That night I committed myself, heart and soul, to Christ and asked Him to forgive my for my sins. It has been over 10 years now since then, and I have striven to live my life in service to Him. Yes, there have been plenty of times when I've stumbled in my walk and have drifted away from God, but He has never foraken me and in time I recall myself and return to Him.

    In the Lord, you have the assurance of eternal security. Storms will still come in this life, but leaning on and trusting in God will see you through. He weeps when you weep and is troubled when you are troubled. It is a free gift He offers, a gift that was paid with a terrible, but necessary, price. If He did not care about humanity as so many of you claim, I hardly think He would have sent His own Son to die a painful death on the cross. But because He loves us, He provided a way to reconcile ourselves to Him, if we choose to take it.

    He is my Shield, my Friend, and my Redeemer. Glory to God.
     
  4. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    I threw up.
     
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  5. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    ... unless you don't believe in G-d and sin.
     
  6. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001

    Cool story Hansel, but what does that have to do with the topic?
     
  7. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    Although it's interesting to note that some analytical philosophers would agree with everything Vivec is taking umbrage with. Philosophy questions are frequently really sloppy and I think it's important to be cognizant of that issue.
     
  8. Skywalker8921

    Skywalker8921 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Jun 9, 2011
    No, pay attention to what I said. Don't believe in God or sin, cool beans, but one day everyone will bow before Christ and confess Him as Lord.

    Ender Sai, Absolute truth discussions can't be separated from beliefs when it comes to Christianity. My post is relevant.,
     
  9. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    ... unless that's not actually true.
     
  10. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Force Ghost star 8

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    Apr 17, 2006
    How is it even possible to have a conversation with someone who starts randomly worshipping in the middle of the paragraph?
     
  11. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I wish my dad was called Jor-El, so Jesus could say "SON OF JOR-EL, KNEEL BEFORE GOD!"

    Well, no, it's not. Firstly, despite my raging atheism I managed to indicate a logical paradox in canon which still assumes God exists.

    Secondly, all you did was tell us how before you learned how to critically think, you became a hardcore Christian. Really, that's what it was. Now, we can debate the neuroscience and psychology of that (and it is a red rag to the bull that is Osama Tim Laden aka timmoishere and his furious jihad against religion) and end up in a place nobody wants to be (except me); or we could talk about absolute truths.

    Note: talking about absolute truths =/= proselytising
     
  12. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent 2017 Celebrity Deathpool Winner star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    And people wonder why religion and science don't coexist very well.
     
  13. dp4m

    dp4m Chosen One star 10

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    Nov 8, 2001
    "Your true love lives. And you marry another. True Love saved her in the Fire Swamp, and she treated it like garbage. And that's what she is, the Queen of Refuse. So bow down to her if you want, bow to her. Bow to the Queen of Slime, the Queen of Filth, the Queen of Putrescence..."

    Annnnnnnnnnd, that's how you do it...
     
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  14. Mortimer Snerd

    Mortimer Snerd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 27, 2012
    I'm convinced. Good thing there aren't any other religions out there snagging people up into believing what is obviously ridiculous.
     
  15. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

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    Jun 25, 2002
    Agreed, which is why I think absolute truth in the religious sense is unreachable, with or without the existence of revelation.

    Actually, I could exhume Imannuel Kant and say that he shows why absolute or objective truth is unreachable in the scientific sense as well, but I really don't feel like debating Kant today. Or more to the point, I don't feel like summarizing him for anyone who hasn't studied him. :p

    We can't know it's there. If you are religious, you can believe it's there, on the word of the writers of sacred texts. Believing that certain texts or historical accounts are divinely inspired is what I mean by believing in "revealed truth."

    Oh, dear, you lost me here. Were you responding to my proposition 2 in the OP, or following up on what you were saying above? Sorry for being a bit dense . . .

    Agreed.

    Hmm, I hadn't heard this argument before. Is this something from Sam Harris?
     
  16. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001

    Communication failure.
     
  17. VadersLaMent

    VadersLaMent 2017 Celebrity Deathpool Winner star 10

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    Apr 3, 2002
    Let me tell you, if I died and went up to some god who claimed to be the so called christian one the first thing I shalt ask about is the book of Job. If the answer back is not ,"Yeah, that's just some jerk human trying to fool you all into following them," then yours truly will be happy to go off to the other place.

    "One day everyone will bow before Christ and confess him Lord." Just like Xerxes in 300.
     
  18. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP

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    Jul 13, 2008
    What I'm getting from this is we need a dedicated "Let's all read and discuss Kant" thread. He's public domain, it could be done. :p
     
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  19. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms star 9 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I'd add Jericho and Sodom and Gomorrah on top of that.

    If the response was "I killed them because they were gay/didn't worship me," I would tell him what a petty little ***hole that he is! and then ask him about Abraham and that little "sacrifice" trick.

    "It was just a test!"

    No, it's a very ****ty thing to do to a parent.

    See ya, I think Satan has a more fully stocked wine cellar anyway.
     
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  20. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I may have misinterpreted your OP then; I read it as information essentially filtering down over time, in that we start with a "moment of truth" and relay it. I was more thinking the other way around; the truth is the fruit at the top of an incomprehensibly large tree we have just started climbing.

    The first part, about believing things get better is called optimism bias. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias


    The second part is my take on optimism bias, informed in part by Harris but also by my own musings. It's no secret that I'm not religious; I see religion as in effect parts controlling mechanism, parts coping mechanism. It's good at being a lot of things to a lot people, none of which is internally consistent or logical but that's ok. It's a putty over a pitted surface, where that surface is our psyche.
     
  21. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

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    Jun 25, 2002
    Oh dear. I find Kant painful, but at least with regard to human perception, I think he's probably right. So studying him is kind of like jogging 5 miles in the cold. Probably good for you, but exceedingly unpleasant. :p

    Oh! I see. Yes, I was saying that it's possible to believe in revealed truth, which is indeed a "moment of truth relayed." I was contrasting the idea of belief in revealed truth with Moviefan2k4's apparent belief that he is in sole possession of absolute truth--un-filtered by human perception, presumably gained when God gave him the walk-through demo of the universe.
     
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  22. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I'm not as across Moviefan2k4 's stance, but is the notion that he has absolute truth; or that as Muslims say, "La illah ila Allah" and through God one eventually know absolute truth?
     
  23. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

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    Jun 25, 2002
    Hmm, not getting that question . . . is there a missing word in there somewhere? Or am I just brain-dead today?
     
  24. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2001
    I reworded it, hopefully with greater clarity.

    I had a thought about this; the Qu'ran begins its narrative with commentary on how God's appearance before Mohammad was his third attempt to speak his Truth to man.

    The first time were the Jews, who lost sight of God's purpose and fixated on ritual.

    The second time was through the prophet Jesus; though Christians then worshipped Christ more than God.

    Islam is the third and to date, final time God's spoken to Man to direct them.

    Ignoring the question of whether you believe Christ was the son of God or a just a propher (assume he was both and neither and nobody's wrong!) - did God have that conversation with Mohammed or not?

    To the extent that God is an absolute truth, I would say you'd have to consider that there's nothing inherently different about the notion of God revealing his purpose in any example. Nor is the allegation of wandering off the spiritual map necessary a huge stretch.

    So could God have spoken to Mohammaed to tell him to start the last proper religion in God's name?
     
  25. poor yorick

    poor yorick Ex-Mod star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA VIP - Game Host

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    Jun 25, 2002
    Yes, certainly, God could communicate directly with a human, if that's what you're asking.