PT Does anakin's chosen one prophecy make sense?

Being seduced into protecting Palpatine and having to betray the Jedi in order for the prophecy to come true meant having to destroy them, which you claim the prophecy didn't have to happen in another thread.

You've gone completely inside out now.

Yoda sent Obi Wan to destroy Vader. Not "do the right thing". Remember? So at least Anakin was right about Yoda coming and killing them both.

Choosing to be exponentially more evil than your impulsive actions because you don't expect forgiveness for them is poor motivation. That's mental illness. Not motivation.

 

No, it doesn't. The prophecy can come true only when he chooses to kill Palpatine. The Jedi were the byproduct of his terrible choices.

Doing the right thing is destroying the Sith.

So it's mental illness, so what. The point is that Anakin has no choice now but to go through with it. He was trying to find a way to avoid all of this and realizes that there is no choice.

 

I don't believe that the idea of bringing balance to the Force makes sense, at least the way the Jedi see it. Balance to the Force implies that the light and dark sides are made equal, and clearly when the Jedi recruit Anakin hoping he'll bring balance, they are expecting him to destroy the Sith.
Of course, that would be the objective of a Jedi in battle against a Sith, but that's hardly bringing balance. It's putting the light side over the dark side.

 

darth-sinister. So the Jedi died because Anakin had no choice.

Great.

 

The Jedi's philosophy is one of balance. They don't seek to impose their philosophy on anyone. They don't seek to snuff out evil in all its forms everywhere. They only seek to contain evil so that it doesn't get out of control. They're mediators. When they go to negotiate with the Trade Federation in Episode I, their goal isn't to destroy the Trade Federation or to force Nute Gunray to change his greedy life philosophy. Their goal is just to stop the Trade Federation's greed from sparking a galactic crisis. Their intention, according to George Lucas, is to go in and make sure Naboo gets something out of the deal and the Trade Federation gets something out of the deal. They don't play favorites. They don't interfere in the affairs of free beings any more than they absolutely have to in order to stop evil from getting totally out of hand. But otherwise, a certain amount of evil must be allowed to exist in order to preserve freedom. Nute Gunray is allowed to be the way he is and pursue his abhorrent goals, within reasonable limits.

The Sith's philosophy, on the other hand, is one of unbalance. They actively cultivate the dark side and seek to impose its will over everything, leaving no room for freedom of choice. They snuff out the light everywhere it emerges, because the light is contrary to their will. Unlike the Jedi, who recognize that it is not their responsibility to force order and uniformity on the universe, the Sith believe completely in their own supremacy over literally everything, and in making the universe exactly what they want it to be: an unrelenting vision of darkness and evil.

I'll repeat this simple distinction over and over and over again, as often as I have to.

 

You contradict yourself, you said that the reason why the Force becomes unbalanced is that the Sith don't try to take over by using force, which is what they did in the past and the Force was never unbalanced then.
What brings it out of balance now is that sith are sneaky and gain power through subversion, not Force.

Which they apparently have never done in the past and thus the Jedi will not have any idea that this will happen.
The Jedi know that the Sith have taken over before, this never caused the Force to be unbalanced so to the Jedi, the sith getting power will not unbalance the Force as it never did so before.

And if the Force is in balance as log as at least one Jedi is alive, then the Force is never out of balance in the whole PT as there are always Jedi alive in all three films.
The only time when there is no Jedi is between Yoda's death and Luke passing his test in the DS.
So the Force was unbalanced a very short time.
And Anakin didn't balance the Force by killing Palpatine, he brought balance by fathering Luke, who became a Jedi and brought back balance. Or he brought balance by stopping Palpatine from killing the last Jedi.
Makes more sense to me that Anakin brings balance by saving or creating a life rather than taking one.

And by this logic, what about the time before anyone learned to use the Force?
Before there were any Jedi, was the Force unbalanced then?
What if the first person that learned to use the Force turned to the Dark side?
Since there are no Jedi to oppose him/her, then the Force goes out of balance?

What if the midi count of all sentient life forms dropped so much that no one could use the Force, would that be balance or not?
If it is, then the Force perhaps should try that way to bring balance instead of making people to kill other people.

[/QUOTE]

Mace beat Palpatine, going by the film, and was going to kill him. If you invoke Lucas and say he didn't, then you admit that the film can't stand on it's own.
The Jedi didn't take out Palpatine, partly because Anakin stopped them and he helped Palpatine to wipe them out.
To argue that the Jedi COULD NOT take out Palpatine because they DID NOT is flawed.
It is like arguing that no man could kill Jabba because Leia, a woman, was the one who killed him.
In what film did Maul say that the Force was out of balance?
If you bring up more EU then again you again show how these films don't stand on their own.

@The_Phantom_Calamari

The events at the start of TPM is the Jedi following the orders of the chancellor of the senate, whom they serve. Not really an example of Jedi philosophy.
The Jedi didn't not choose to get involved on their own in this.
The chancellor saw that the senate was unable to resolve this matter and he took some personal initiative and sent two Jedi to deal with it. Sure they agreed with it and they probably would not had it been totally against their code.

And it didn't sound that there would be much negotiating going on.
By what Obi-Wan said, they were sent with a series of demands from the chancellor and Qui-Gon thought that Nute would quickly comply because he thought he was a coward.
Probably Valorum thought the same, hence why he sent two Jedi instead of some random diplomat, he figured that the TF would mess their pants and agree quickly.

And the blockade is a conflict between the TF and the senate, not the TF and Naboo.
The TF are essentially holding the Naboo hostage to force the senate to do what it wants.
So all the Naboo want out of it is the blockade gone. The Naboo have nothing they can give the TF, nor should they. They are hostages.
So the senate can give the TF something, like removing the trade tax. But I doubt that was part of Valorums demands.

As for not playing favorites, they come on behalf of the chancellor and are told to present his demands to the TF. They are not neutral here. They are the agents of the republic/senate/chancellor.
And when the TF turn violent, the jedi act to save Padme and take her away from Naboo, again this is not being neutral. The Jedi clearly side with Padme and Naboo against the TF.

The Jedi try to reach Nute and if they had, I would imagine they would try to arrest him or force him to stop what he is doing and surrender.

As for not imposing their philosophy on anyone, the Jedi take in very young children, who are far too young to have a say in the matter. They are then brought up inside the Jedi order and the Jedi are the only people they know.
Sure they can leave but how easy is it to turn your back on the only life you have known and the only people you know?

Lastly, if balance means "Kill all Sith" then the Jedi have it as part of their dogma to seek out and kill any and all Sith. Or dark side users since the films don't establish that there are any darks side users other than siths.
So if a jedi turns to the dark side, the Jedi must kill him or her.

No Sith must be allowed to live.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I think it's meant to be very questionable, though reasonable, for Yoda and Obi-Wan to quickly decide that Vader must be destroyed and later for Obi-Wan to interrupt Padme trying to reach out. Although given Anakin's reaction and anger at Padme maybe she was wrong and Obi-Wan right that she couldn't bring him back (Luke also in a sense also couldn't, only Palpatine eventually alienated him and made Luke in another sense succeed).

Anakin did seem at least somewhat sincere, although warped, in believing that the Jedi were evil (at least because they didn't help him when he needed it) and that he had the right to rule the galaxy and could make it a better place for everyone or most people.

 

Actually they do on all the children that they feel like, as long as the parents agree (and maybe if they don't, they could have the law support them).

Maybe. That's possible but I get the sense from Qui-Gon's assurance that the negotiations will be short that they will also be one-sided and from lines like "Have you ever encountered a Jedi Knight before?" and Anakin's aggressive negotiations comment that they're effective (although indeed not brutal) combatants as much or more than mediators.

 

But it's not. The Force is in balance so long as good continues to battle evil. Evil always exists. The Jedi always work to keep the balance, helping the other forces of good. The Sith disrupt the balance through their actions in trying to destroy the Jedi and causing all the problems that they do. There's that push-pull tension and if the tension is pushed out of balance, then everything goes to hell. As the Father explained, if there is too much light, the Force is out of balance. That's why the Jedi don't cause the Force to go out of balance.

He always had a choice, but the choices that were in front of him were not desirable because they all ended with Padme dying. The one scenario where she doesn't die is the one where he betrays the Jedi and joins the Sith.

No, I said that the Force becomes unbalanced because the Sith begin to take control of the galaxy. But it is only in this time period, that it happens the way that it does. The Sith blur the lines between good and evil and thus push the Force out of balance. In the past, they try to disrupt the balance by taking control directly. But the Force wasn't pushed out of balance then. Only now. Their actions could push the Force out of balance by destroying the Jedi and causing an imbalance. But they never fully succeeded. This time is different.

No, you're missing it. So long as there are Jedi fighting the Sith, the Force is in balance. At the end of ROTS, the Jedi quit fighting and the Force is out of balance. The Jedi Order as a whole is dead and gone, save for two and they're old individuals who are dying in ANH. It isn't a short period of time. It is evil being in control of the galaxy without opposition that keeps the Force out of balance. There is no hope in the galaxy, only fear. There is no selflessness, only greed. We see the Rebel leadership fall into despair over the war efforts and now the revelation of the Death Star. We see people willing to give up rather than fight. We see people motivated by self-interest rather than the common good. The actions of the crew of the Rogue One and Luke's emergence as the new hope, changes everything. It starts to rally people to fight the Empire. To stand up for themselves. To become selfless. At the end, the Chosen One destroys the Sith and restores the balance.

The Force was in balance. Then the first Force user came along and used the Force properly and the Force was in balance. The Force was in balance when the Jedi Order, the Shamen of the Whills, the Dagoyan Masters and anyone else who use the Force kept it in balance. But then the Sith came along and tried to disrupt the balance because they were greedy, power hungry and destructive. So now we have a struggle between the Jedi and the Sith, with regards to the Force.

It doesn't make people kill people. People kill people on their own because of their emotional nature. We kill each other without the Force driving us to do it. The Force is nature and life. Midichlorians guarantee that life exists and either the Force or the Midichlorians or both, want people to have a knowledge of the Force.

What Qui-gon was referring to was the fact that the Federation are cowards who would always back down when push comes to shove. But due to the Sith's involvement, the Federation starts to do things they wouldn't normally do. When Rune asks Nute about encountering a Jedi before, it has to do with the fact that they've never crossed paths with the Jedi before. They're afraid of them because of the rumors about their abilities and their ties to the Senate. Anakin's comments about aggressive negotiations is the result of negotiations breaking down and weapons being drawn. See what Luke does to free Han.

 

...Yeah, that's not "everyone." They train certain adepts upon whom the Force itself has bestowed a greater destiny. And those adepts have the choice to leave whenever they want.

There's no indication that children are ever taken against their will. The passive, benevolent way in which the Jedi are portrayed, the light-handed manner in which Anakin was recruited by Qui-Gon, and the non-judgmental way in which apostates like Dooku are judged all seem to attest against that (again, baseless in the first place) theory.

Yes, the negotiations will be short because the Federation are cowards and will easily be persuaded by the Jedi that the potential negative consequences (the likelihood of which the Jedi and their mysterious ways can surely lend a hand in influencing) are not worth the potential reward. That doesn't mean they'll be unfair or one-sided. They clearly didn't come there with the intention of whipping out their lightsabers. They just want the Federation to stop blockading the planet, and that's it.

The Neimoidians fear the Jedi because they're almost mythical figures to them, with mental and persuasive powers which defy mortal understanding. We can see later in the movie, with Qui-Gon's shrewd manipulation of Watto, just how the Jedi have earned their reputation as an intimidating, unstoppable force which always somehow gets its way even without the use of physical violence. You can walk into a conference room with a Jedi and feel for all the world like you have the advantage, and that the Jedi are off their game and making crucial, obvious errors in judgment, and you can think you're getting everything you ever wanted out of the negotiations and more....only to walk out at the very end and suddenly realize they've gotten the better of you without you even realizing exactly how.

And the Neimoidians themselves of course know that this isn't a simple trade dispute; they're involved in something much bigger and much more sinister, and Rune knows that if the Jedi find out, the negotiations will (quite understandably, on the Jedi's part) become much less benign. Sidious knows it too, which is why he orders them killed immediately.

 

I don't where this notion of Jedi being baby stealers come from but it's certainly not in the movies I watched.

 

I doubt the younglings saw the ad in the newspaper for volunteers or felt it might be a useful internship.

 

Which is no different from parents who select their child's religion, what they eat, where they go to school at, what they consume in terms of media, what they wear, etc. Our parents decide what's best for us, which is the point of parenting. They decide until we're old enough to be able to make those decisions for ourselves. So if some parents felt that being a Jedi is the best thing for their child, like Shmi did when she asked if Qui-gon could help him, then that was perfectly legal and even morally acceptable.

 

Sending your child off to become a warrior/ambassador/magician at the age of four or five is not what "selecting their child's religion" means for civillised people. There is no evidence in the movies of anyone outside the Jedi being devoted enough to this religion enough to give their children over to it.

The Jedi and the galaxy have no authority on Tatooine (which is the excuse given for the disinterest in going back there and doing what would have been the best thing for Shmi, and even better for Anakin) so to say that it's perfectly legal is just plain wrong.

Yes adults make decisions for children. Governments make decisions for citizens. That doesn't make the decisions right.

 

Except you said that the last time the Sith ruled the galaxy the Force was NOT out of balance because the Sith took power through violent means. But this time there is an imbalance because the Sith got power through subversion and trickery.
So the Force is apparently quite picky when it comes to becoming unbalanced or not.
If Evil takes over through violence and military strength, not unbalanced.
If Evil takes over through sneaky ways, now there is an imbalance.
So Evil ruling is not enough, the way Evil came to power is what matters.

And the Sith never did succeed in wiping out the Jedi. Some were always left alive.
Again excepting the short time between Yoda's death and Luke passing his test.


Also, based on some EU, that might not be canon anymore, the last time the Sith lost power not through the Jedi fighting them, but because of serious infighting amongst themselves.

Except that prior to TPM and 1000 years back, no Jedi fought the Sith because they thought they were all dead. And as I said above, the last time the Sith lost not due to the Jedi but their tendency to stab each other in the back.

After RotS, it is implied in the film that other Jedi survive, how many and what they did afterwards is not dealt with IN the films. So they could have fought the Sith in their own way.
When we reach ANH then we have only two Jedi yes.
But Luke starts to become one and he fights the Sith.
And prior to ANH, the rebels fought the Empire, some lost faith but not everyone.
So there was resistance all the time.

[/QUOTE]

Wrong, the Force created Anakin with the sole purpose to KILL Palpatine and any other Sith.
So the Force DID want want the Sith dead and created Anakin to do the job.
So Anakin is a Force Terminator so to speak.
His only function in life is to kill Sith, that is what the Force created him to do.
And it gave him extra powers so that he could do it.

Unless the prophecy is wrong and the Force didn't create Anakin.

Really?
Suppose a country makes a big change to how it's military works.
It begins to test a newborns and look for a genetic combination that makes for ideal soldiers.
Those children are removed from their parents at age one, the parents are asked first. Then the child is raised isolated from family etc and can never have any contact with them and is trained to become a soldier.
Would this system cause comments from other countries?
I think it would.
Child soldiers are frowned upon by many countries.

Also, in my country there has been discussion about religious schools and if that is compatible with the idea that all schools should be non-confessional.

And you have sects and cults that live very isolated from society.
From time to time, some people manage to break from those cults and they speak how hard that was and how they lost their family and friends by doing it.
The had been discussion if such cults should be allowed and the issue of religious freedom and the freedom to live your life as you choose but does it impact the freedom of someone else?
Not a simple topic and no easy answers are found.
But the issue is a debated one.
Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

^ But Sith goes up to eleven.

 

The Jedi Order are not soldiers, they're peacekeepers. They're like cops or samurai. And yes, being a Jedi is basically selecting your child's religion. As to other organizations, no, the Jedi are the only ones who actively use the Force to be the guardians of peace and justice. This is true in TCW. The Dagoyan Masters of Bardotta were only interested in the study of the Force, not using it selflessly. During the war itself, only Padawans in their teens were sent out to fight. Ahsoka and Kanan were fourteen when they left the Temple.

The Hutts have no interest in slaves that are not their own. And Shmi gave permission for her son to go with Qui-gon after he was free and thus no longer the property of Watto, due to the latter losing a bet which resulted in Anakin's freedom being granted. All perfectly legal on Tatooine. That's why Watto didn't pursue the matter further when Qui-gon suggested going to Jabba and Gardulla about a possibility of cheating.

It isn't that the Force is picky, but that the Sith manipulate "the system" to get results and this manipulation is what causes the imbalance.

As Yoda stated, the shroud of the dark side has fallen in AOTC. By the end of the ROTS, the Jedi are mostly dead. The Force is out of balance. The few that are left quit. Give up. Obi-wan even says that he was a Jedi, not is. Past tense.

It was both. The Jedi took advantage of the infighting among the Sith to destroy them. That's what was was shown in "Jedi Vs Sith" and in "Path Of Destruction". Both of which follows what Lucas said.

Uh, the Jedi did fight the Sith. Lucas said it and those old EU stories showed it.

That resistance was dying (Jedi) or losing hope (the Alliance). What they were doing was not enough. That is why the Battles of Scarif and Yavin 4 were instrumental in turning the tide, creating a wave of hope and resistance.

The prophecy is right, but as we've discussed before, the Sith could have created Anakin.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

His connection to the Force is a byproduct of being created by the Midichlorians. Now, he could have fought Palpatine and defeat him due to his strong connection to the Force. Or he could do what he did, because he was the only one who could. Not through his power, but his attacking Palpatine through an act of betrayal. Or by letting Mace kill Palpatine.

If all you were doing was creating soldiers, then yes, it would be objectionable. The Jedi were not creating soldiers for war. They were creating peacekeepers who were taught a religion at the same time. Most situations involving the teenage Padawans were ones that were resolved without armed conflict. When the Republic needed soldiers, then they either created them or used ones created separately.

Hell, there are military schools that take children and teach them some of the basics of military combat. Teaching them to clean and fire a gun, as well as go through some of the other military physical fitness training and are even given ranks, even if it is more in name only.

That's a whole different thing.

 

Yeah unfortunately even though this prophesy sounds cool it was never explained who gave it...why so much wait was given on it (since even Yoda says 'always in motion the future is'). Besides wouldn't the Jedi think that the prophesy has already been fulfilled? After all the Jedi in TPM were shocked that the Sith were even alive...so than doesn't that mean they believed they no longer exist...meaning the prophesy already happened?

 

There's apparently a difference between prophecy and visions of the future. This accords with real-world religious traditions like Christianity, where a distinction is drawn between prophecy, which is believed to involve direct communications from God to a prophet; and divination, which involves the foretelling of future events through supernatural (read: demonic) means. Prophecy is sanctioned and given great respect by Christianity, but divination is condemned as being both unnatural and dangerous. This is very analogous to the way the two different ways of foreseeing future events via the Force are treated by the Jedi.

As to why the Jedi in TPM are shocked that the Sith are still alive, it's because of exactly what they say: They don't believe the Sith could have returned without them knowing. It would seem that with the long centuries of peace following the seeming defeat of the Sith, the legitimacy of the prophecy had fallen into doubt by the time of TPM, just as it would fall into doubt again starting with Yoda's expressions of skepticism in Episode III.

 

Interesting....so i wondering if 'the force' lets say spoke to a jedi...lets say like how God spoke to Moses with burning bush account. But 'the force' is i understand it is not an identity more of an active force...kinda like holy spirit. Obviously its not direct comparison because holy spirit is an active force used by God to achieve thing, but Star Wars there isn't 'a god' that uses 'the force.' There is just 'the force'. But in this version in star wars 'the force' does in a sense have a thinking ability? does that make sense....like it lets the Jedi know what to do? Doesn't Qui-Gon say something like 'if you listen to the force' meaning...its speaking to you? Anyways i might be going off a little bit.

 

Most likely in the Saga is that someone with Force abilities had foreseen the rising darkness, that the Sith were the focal point of said darkness and then saw Anakin being the one to bring balance. The knowledge of this vision was then recorded by the Jedi Order and remained in the Archives for generations. What Qui-gon is referring to is hearing the will of the Force through the Midichlorians. As I understand and interpret it, it isn't specific communication, but more of a strong general sense of awareness. We call it a sixth sense. Instinct. Intuition. These are the moments when a Jedi block attacks or like when Obi-wan remembered Qui-gon's Lightsaber.

The Midichlorians can be used as a means of seeing and hearing Force ghosts, which is how they're able to communicate with the living Jedi.

 

As per George Lucas,there's a Cosmic Force and a Living Force. They're two halves of the unified entity known as "the Force." The Cosmic Force has a will and is associated with things like prophecies, while the Living Force is more like a sort of non-intelligent free-flowing qi. The Living Force is the part of the Force that is created by living beings and which has a light side and a dark side. The Cosmic Force is a neutral entity which seeks to maintain the balance in the Living Force. The midi-chlorians are the entities which act as connectors between the Cosmic and the Living. This is why the midi-chlorians were the agents by which the Prophecy of the Chosen One was initially set in motion. This is all stuff that's been canonically established.

My speculation is that--as opposed to prophecies, which are transmitted to prophets by the will of the Cosmic Force--the kinds of visions of the future that Anakin and Luke are shown to have are based more on the idea of an individual grasping by themselves at the constantly-shifting web of possibilities which constitute the future. Trying to influence the future based on such nebulous visions is dangerous for mortal beings, who by their nature possess a very limited view of the larger picture. But the Cosmic Force, being essentially if not totally omniscient, is of course perfectly free to exert its will to communicate and bring forth prophecies, having a clear picture of the potential consequences of this suspension of the laws of causality.

 

Honestly, the prophecy doesn't make sense.

Who made this prophecy of the Chosen One?

What horrible event was foretold that would necessitate the prophecy of a chosen one?

How long has this prophecy been around?

Do all the Jedi believe in the prophecy or just some of them like Qui-Gon?

What exactly does "Bring balance to the Force" mean? When I first saw Phantom Menace all those years ago, my thought was "Um, Jedi, do you want balance? Right now you are sitting high and pretty and I don't think you want a swing the other way to even it out". I thought balance was just that. Balance. Equalization between the Light and the Dark. Apparently that's NOT what it means. Apparently the prophecy means "Destroy the Sith". But as far as the Jedi knew, the Sith were already destroyed prior to Episode 1, so why would they be waiting for a chosen one at all?

These are all things that should have been made clear in Episode I and, well, weren't.

 

In a sense the virgin birth and the prophesy were just plot devices to make Anakin seem really special. Neither revelation really impacts the story in any way. The fact that we're having these debates clearly indicates to me, that the concept of balance was not well developed in the films. I personally would have preferred it, if Qui-Gon had really believed in Anakin personally, rather than believing in some vague prophesy of which Anakin is an exponent.