PT Does anakin's chosen one prophecy make sense?

Who says Leia doesn't know the ways of the Force in TFA? We don't see her using the Force, aside from sensing her son murder his father. There should be some reveals in TLJ.

 

I saw nothing that meant Lei was destined to be a Jedi just like Luke. That's a possibility but the OT did a good job of showing Luke making his own destiny. Yes, as a Jedi. But no ordinary Jedi.

The prospect of Luke passing on his learning and Leia being his first pupil is appealing, but that does not make it a foregone conclusion. It doesn't make a certainty of Luke being a successful teacher or Leia a willing pupil.

 

I guess we'll see. But just from TFA, it really doesn't seem like she's a Jedi.

 

Well, I'm hoping we will see brother and sister in action in TLJ. Would be the perfect send off for Carrie Fisher's beloved character.

 

I never thought she'd formally become a Jedi Knight. Luke tells her in RotJ that in time she'll "have that power" (the Force) & will learn to use it. We see her immediately sense the death of Han in TFA. I'm sure that in the ST she has some mastery of the Force. Probably focused around the Force-sense sphere of abilities. Just don't expect her to jump around doing back-flips & wielding a lightsaber.

 

Did Yoda seem like a Jedi in TESB or ROTJ?

 

Well, in TESB she sensed where was Luke, in ROTJ she, again, sensed that Luke escaped the Death Star, so having her sense her husband's death in TFA is nothing new.

That kind of empathy was quite good in TESB because it saved Luke, but it didn't serve her, Luke, Han and the story much in ROTJ and TFA.

 

In ESB did she sense Luke or did Luke reach out to her with the Force? Hard to say.

 

I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that the Jedi were NOT involved in the sith being overthrown and made extinct. Or so people thought.
Maul talks about revenge, that statement becomes odd if it wasn't due to the Jedi nearly wiping out the sith 1000 years ago.
What else would he want revenge for? It can't have been anything that happened to him as the Jedi are unaware of his existence.
That the Jedi are the good guys and him being a bad guy so he has to hate them and want revenge because of that?
Rather weak I think.

No, TPM and RotS does paint a picture of the sith ruling the galaxy and the Jedi being the ones who overthrew them and almost wiped them out. And as far as the Jedi thought, they WERE wiped out.
And since no chosen one was around, the question remains, why would the Jedi think one is needed now?

And Obi-Wan, who was not even a jedi Knight, he killed a Sith Lord.
So the Jedi know that they can be killed.
So why can only a chosen one do it?

Actually, RotJ does not make it explicitly clear that Obi-Wan knew all along that Leia was Luke's sister.
From what he says it is possible that Luke and Leia were split up at birth and Obi-Wan was given Luke. But either he didn't know that there was another or didn't know who he/she was.
That would explain why he says Luke is their last hope and Yoda has to correct him.
"NO, there is another."
If he has known about Leia all that time why would he not consider her?
Is it because she was a girl?
Or did Obi-Wan just forget?

If he was unaware until Yoda saying "No, there is another" and then he was filled in about Leia, then all he says in RotJ is from what Yoda told him.
Yoda was reluctant to train Luke and Obi-Wan had to twist his arm quite a bit.
Leia was not even on the table as far as Yoda was concerned.
And without Obi-Wan's persistence, I think it is possible that Yoda would not have trained Luke either.
Which becomes odd since Yoda did have a plan to hide until the time was right.
Before, you could say that Yoda has just become disillusioned and given up on the galaxy.
And it takes a lot of pestering from Obi-Wan to change his mind.

Again, if Obi-Wan was unaware of her until ESB and after that, well not much time passes and how could they train her?
Could Obi-Wan appear to her and tell her to go to Dagobah? Unknown.
It doesn't seem that she can see the Force ghosts in the end of RotJ. So unless they appear to Luke and tell him to bring her, then it is possible that they can't reach her.

And after ESB, Yoda got sick and was in no shape to train anyone.
But he did tell Luke to pass on what he had learned.

Luke is no more special than any other of the Skywalker line.
What made him a hero is who he was as a person, not what.

He is strong in the Force, not the strongest one ever, not a Force demi-God, not a prophesied chosen one. He is just strong in the Force and he is a good person. Obi-Wan did know him better than he did Anakin before starting to train him.
If Luke had showed that he was totally unsuitable then I doubt Obi-Wan would have wanted to train him. And Yoda was reluctant and only trained him after badgering by Obi-Wan.
The choice to train Annakin was not about who he was as a person, it was about what he was.

[/QUOTE]

Which he said in response to Obi-Wan saying:
"That boy is our LAST hope."

So clearly Leia is another hope, Luke isn't the last one.
So there is a backup.
Sure, that backup is currently held by Vader and would most likely die and Yoda was fine with her dying. But again, that is on RotJ.

@The_Phantom_Calamari

I mostly agree.
They would have been sensed as soon as they started to train and if they had been five years old, they would be less able to defend themselves.
Where I somewhat disagree is that Leia is by now a wanted person by the empire.
She is no longer safe. The empire is after her for being a rebel and would likely execute her if they catch her.
So her training would not really add to the danger.
And given Yoda's age, training them both would save time.

Which is also why I find it really odd that Yoda and Obi-Wan wait three years before talking to Luke and telling him to go to Dagobah.
He was hunted by the empire that whole time and could have been killed.
And it seems that Leia was with him. So if the empire caught them, both hopes would have died and Yoda and Obi-Wan would have lost.
And Yoda complains that Luke is too old, well he has only himself to blame here. You could have called Luke three years earlier you know.

@Darth Downunder
I think ESB makes it clear that Luke is calling to Leia using mental powers.
So he is doing all the work, she is just listening.
"Leia, hear me."

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

A lot of interesting points brought out in this topic. I'm assuming the chosen one prophesy would mention something about how strong in the force the chosen one would be? Before Anakin it seemed like Yoda had the highest midi count, but it wasn't mentioned that they thought Yoda was the chosen one.

 

Leia is not a Jedi, she decided she was needed more in building the New Republic. It's actual canon in the 3 Aftermath series novel and Bloodlines novel.

 

Anakin was given the Chosen One label because of a combination of his miraculous birth, a highest midi count and a resurgence of the Sith. They were thought to have been extinct long before Yoda was born, so I'm guessing that there was no balance for him to restore.

 

From what I interpret, the Jedi knew the Sith could always rise again despite their demise.. To the Jedi, the prophecy foretold The Chosen One to eliminate the Sith forever to the point where the Sith would not ever rise again. The Sith may have been gone for a long time before events in TPM, but to those who believed in the prophecy -- that only meant the Sith will rise again until The Force miraculously brings forth The Chosen One. Obviously Qui Gon was convinced the prophecy was true after meeting Anakin, but it seems as if many other Jedi were skeptical

 

But to me this has problems.

If in the past, the Jedi think that the sith are all dead but will rise again at some point, with no other sith around, how can that happen?
Well the most obvious answer is that as soon as a Jedi gives in to evil and turns to the Dark Side, he/she becomes a Sith. The PT/OT films only has two kinds of Force Users, Jedi and Sith. And Lucas has said that there is no such thing as a Dark Jedi.
So ok, a new Sith can arise even if no sith are currently alive.

But since all Anakin was supposed to do was to kill the Sith that were currently alive, how would that prevent new Sith from emerging?
If a Jedi turns to the Dark side 50 years after Anakin then we would have Siths again.
If killing all siths in the past didn't prevent new ones from arising, why would it do so when Anakin kills them?
That would work if Anakin destroys the Dark Side or fundamentally alters the nature of the Force so that Force users won't turn to the dark side anymore. But that to me sounds a lot more than just "kill the sith." And the films don't imply that this is what is going on.

Also, killing a Sith is not impossible, the Jedi know that it has been done before.
So why would only a chosen one be able to do so when that wasn't the case before?
Unless Anakin wasn't supposed to kill any run-of-the-mill Sith. He was supposed to kill super-uber-special Siths. But the films doesn't imply that the new sith are vastly more powerful than the ones before. Maul was certainly not that hard to kill since even an apprentice Jedi could do it.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

For the Jedi ending their rule of the galaxy and making them go into hiding. That's why he said We will have revenge, we - the order of the Sith. And I'd say also that the Ep 3 title and Sidious' words of ruling the galaxy once more are connected.

Have the Jedi ever expressed their wonder about the Sith being present after they wiped them out?

Well, as we know, the Sith were in hiding for a long period of time. In TMP they decided to reveal themselves (and then the Jedi managed to kill the apprentice) and Paplatine (the master, the Sith they were looking for) was in front of their eyes all the time. Flawed as the Jedi were, it took someone special to bring an end to their order.

Yes, but before passing on what he learned, Luke had to face Vader and the Emperor. Yoda and Obi-Wan failed to destroy them, and now that barely trained boy should do their job? Or maybe he's special enough to complete his training in that short time between TESB and ROTJ?

Anakin and Luke are both great Force potentials, they're both strong in the Force, at the beginning they were both good persons and they were recruited for a single purpose of destroying the Sith. Anakin's reason was the midichlorian count which is connected to the prophecy, and Luke's was because he's the son of Anakin (the Force runs strong in his family). Because of the prophecy no one else could've destroyed the Sith, and because of his strong bloodline no one could've been recruited but Luke... Well, except Leia, but Luke is special... Like his father.

Although that's never supported in the movies, it doesn't change the fact that Luke is chosen to fight the Sith, not his sister.

 

The Skywalker line IS special.

Who he is as a person is directly tied into his lineage. If he was someone else then none if it works.

 

But the Sith were not just overthrown, they were made extinct. At least that is what the Jedi thought.
The sith were all KILLED. So if the Jedi were responsible for the sith being overthrown why is is not reasonable to think that the Jedi tried to kill them all. They did not quite succeed but they thought they did.
That would be a strong motive for revenge, the Jedi almost wiping out your order.

Since TPM mentions the Sith getting wiped out and Maul talks about revenge, the simplest explanation is to me, that the Jedi tried to kill them all and nearly succeeded.

Umm.. yes, in TPM. When Qui-Gon reports that he thinks his attacker was a Sith Lord, there is shock, surprise and denial from many of the other Jedi.
"Impossible." etc.

Well the only reason the Jedi found out that Palpatine was a Sith was from him telling them.
Had he not, neither Anakin nor the rest of the Jedi would had a clue.
But the issue still remains, the chosen one is meant to KILL the sith.
And a jedi apprentice can kill a Sith Lord. So they are not that hard to kill.
And in the past, Jedi have killed Sith Lords.

The short training is another issue brought on by the PT.
Anakin trains for 10+ years and he even started late.
Luke has what, a month or two with Yoda?
With just the OT, we don't know how long a "normal" training took.
But with the PT we know is was at least a decade or two.
So now Luke is getting the most crash course imaginable.
Doing something in 1/50th of the normal time.

Also, Luke wasn't told that he must confront Vader and Palpatine BEFORE he could pass on what he had learned. He could that at any point.
In RotJ, Luke is told he must confront Vader, not Palpatine.
Sure that would come eventually but in order to fully become a Jedi, Luke has just to confront Vader.
And based on what Luke said, he didn't plan on taking on the emperor at this time.

Qui-Gon didn't recruit Anakin with the goal to wipe out the Sith. At that time, he didn't know they were around. He was amazed at Anakin's high midi count and thought he would make a great Jedi.
Only after getting attacked by Maul did he bring up the prophecy.
In TPM, the Jedi were many and had a lot of resources.
In the OT; they were down to two old men hiding in the far reaches of the galaxy.

As for Luke, with Anakin joining the sith, the Jedi would most likely threw the prophecy out of the window. Their messiah, their chosen one, has betrayed them and made the sith even stronger.
Even before this, the Jedi were worried that they had misread the prophecy. Afterwards, they would most likely think it bunk. Hence why they never mention it in the whole OT.

Luke was trained because someone had to stop the Sith.
As Yoda said

Yoda and Obi-Wan consider themselves too old and later too dead to do this.
Do they know anyone else that is strong in the Force? Well Leia but as I said, Obi-Wan might not know about her in ESB.

So they need a trained Jedi with the Force as his ally.
Interesting use of "his" there. Maybe Yoda and Obi-Wan did discount Leia because she was a girl.

[/QUOTE]

Chosen by Obi-Wan. Who was watching over Luke.
Leia was out of his reach and given her role as senator and rebel leader, she was kind of busy.
Luke had not as much to do. Also he was not on the Empires' radar prior to ANH.
It seems from what Obi-Wan said about wanting to give his father's lightsaber to Luke but Owen not allowing it. That he wanted to start Luke's training sooner than what happened in ANH.

And Luke and Leia might be relevant due to their connection with Anakin. That any other potential Jedi he would just kill but his children, that might cause him to hesitate. And maybe sow seeds of discord between him and the emperor.

But for now.
Old Stoneface

 

No, TPM speaks of the Sith being extinct. Jedi trying to kill them all and nearly succeeded fits into this, but they never mention wiping them out.

The question was: Have the Jedi ever expressed their wonder about the Sith being present after they wiped them out? The answer is - no.

Yes, that's what I said. And having this in mind, is it so unbelievable for the Jedi to surprise upon revelation of the Sith in TPM?

To be precise, the Chosen One is meant to kill the last Sith lord. Because killing one is like killing none.

In TESB Luke arrives to Dagobah to start his training with Yoda. Yoda eventually agrees and starts to train Luke. Several days into his course Luke leaves to save his friends. He's off, gone. Then, in ROTJ, he returns to Yoda to, as he says, complete his training, but Yoda answers that he requires no more training. He came back to complete his training. So, he learned how to build a lightsaber or use mind trick all by himself? The issue I'm having here, and I wrote it in my previous post, is not the time he spent on training with Yoda, but that he learned everything by himself between two movies. So the PT caused no issues here, it's entirely on the OT. Unless, of course, the fact that the Jedi teach their padawans for decades somehow made Luke, well, special.

Technically, yes. The issue here is, can he pass on what he learned before he becomes a Jedi?

In previous post you said: The choice to train Anakin was not about who he was as a person, it was about what he was. Now it seams that he was recruited like any other Jedi, because of his midichlorian count. Luke, on the other hand, is watched by Obi-Wan from his birth so I doubt he was trained because someone had to stop the Sith. It was him all along, probably because of - what he was, the son of Anakin. That's even, in a way, corroborated in ROTJ. Like you said:

 

That is implicit with Maul wanting revenge on the Jedi.
The Jedi tried to kill all the Sith and nearly succeeded. Maul wants revenge for that near extermination.
Simple and fits perfectly.
If the Jedi were not the cause of the sith going extinct, or at least that is what everyone thinks, what was?
The film gives no answers or even hints.
So the Jedi being responsible is the most simple and logical explanation.

No the answer is is yes.
The Jedi tried to wipe out the sith 1000 years ago and they thought they had succeeded.
And when they hear about the Sith being back, they are shocked and surprised.
Because they thought they had WIPED THEM OUT.

But if other Jedi can kill other sith Lords and have done so, why can only Anakin kill the last one?
Do the sith get some special "can't be killed" power when they are the last one alive?

Why do you assume that we saw EVERY moment of Luke's training?
We saw bits and pieces of it so why do you assume that it is impossible that he was told how to do the mind trick or how to build a saber during the bits we didn't see?
Also we don't know how long Luke was there.
He was there long enough for Han and co to go from one system to another without the hyperdrive.
If that meant sub-lightspeed, then the time for such a trip would be weeks at the very least.
Probably years.

So he could have learned from Yoda all the basic knowledge that he needed and what happens between ESB and RotJ is that he has trained and is better at them.
Learning the basics how to drive might not take that long. Becoming a highly skilled driver, that might take longer. And once a person knows the basics of how to drive, they can train on their own.

Luke thought he needed more training which is understandable, he would not know how much he was supposed to learn. But Yoda told him that he already knows what he needs. But he still has a test/trial in front of him. To face Vader.
So he needs no more knowledge, now it is about being able to use what he knows and confront his evil father.

Of course, why wouldn't he?

If you are studying say law, and at the end there is a big exam.
You can still pass on knowledge to others even before you pass that exam.

Luke has a trial in front of him, to face Vader.
But he certainly could start to tell Leia about to use the Force and pass on what he has learned.

[/QUOTE]

His midi count was known to the JC and they still rejected him.
After Naboo, the Jedi were apparently convinced that the sith were back.
Why is not said. I mean the only new piece of information they have is that this dark warrior killed Qui-Gon. Beyond that, they know nothing more. They don't even know his name.
Well they might get his body from that pit. No idea what that would tell them.

But regardless, the JC are now sure that the sith are back and they think that Anakin is the one who will destroy said sith so they decide to train him for that reason. To fulfill a prophecy.

Obi-Wan watched over Luke. Based on the OT, he knew that Anakin's children would be strong in the Force and a threat to the emperor.
If that threat was just due to their Force potential or also because their connection to Anakin, that is unclear.
Did Obi-Wan know any other children that were also strong in the Force?
The films don't say.
So he has one that could be useful so he goes with that rather than run around and try to find others.
Which would be hard since he is a wanted man.

Also, Obi-Wan knows Luke far better than Qui-Gon knew Anakin.
So Obi-Wan knows Luke the person a lot better and so him wanting to train Luke is motivated by more than just "He is strong in the Force."

Lastly, Luke is an example of the trope "The main character is the son of a famous or heroic character."
Anakin meanwhile is son of "God". He is made super special. His count is the highest known, he has no mortal father. He is a demi-God.

Luke is strong but so is Leia. Anakin is the strongest one ever.

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

I really have to ask a question: Wasn't George Lucas specific in interviews that Anakin was / is "the Chosen One"?

 

Could you be more...specific?

(sorry)

 

First of all, the prophecy was for bringing balance to the Force. Not only killing the Sith. Destroying the Sith. Obi-Wan crippled a Sith Lord by cheap-shotting him when he lowered his guard (he didn't kill him, since Maul returned as a Sith in the Clone Wars) and Sith order still continued to live until the Emperor's death. They also knew there was another Sith out there at the end of TPM. Anakin destroyed Dooku, then he becomes a Sith apprentice, with that he prevented another Sith apprentice's coming and then he turned to the light side and betrayed the Emperor, cheap-shotted from behind, completely destroyed the Sith.

 

No, I don't think I can be, as I would probably violate two JCF rules simultaneously. Just for now, the exact Lucas interview quote should be sufficient, IIRC darth-sinister provided the corresponding interview quotes repeatedly.

 

^ Since you read my post addressing the issue in the other subsection of the JCF in the meantime, you understand (?) why I couldn' go into details or do you still want me to PM you?

Anyway, found the "interview" which is actually a BTS documentary from the ROTS bonus features, IIRC: