PT Does anakin's chosen one prophecy make sense?

We disagree in that I believe what you're implying is that just the mere existence of the Sith throws the Force out of balance. That is not what I agree with. As I said in my post, the Sith never stopped existing for the Millennium that the Jedi thought they were extinct for, yet the Force seems like it was perfectly fine.

I believe that the prophecy refers to destroying only the current incarnation of the Sith, ie, Sidious and whomever his apprentice is.

In TPM, when Qui-Gon approaches the Jedi with the possibility of the Sith returning, they brush him off, just like they do when Qui-Gon says he may have found the Chosen One of the Prophecy. Does this sound like a Jedi Council that believes the Force is out of balance? No it doesn't, and I believe it's because at that point the Force is just starting to move out of balance. They don't sense it yet.

It's because the Jedi blow Qui-Gon off, this tells me that the Force is not out of balance. If the Force was out of balance, surely the Jedi would have known, and would have taken Qui-Gon much more serious. This is what we see at the end of TPM, when the Jedi Council realizes that they are dealing with a Sith Lord (Maul) and it in part forces them to change their mind about training the Chosen One (though Yoda stands by his initial feelings about Anakin, but is obviously overruled by the rest of the council).

I just can't see how the Jedi would possibly blow off Qui-Gon so easily if the Force was out of balance. It's because of their dis-belief in the Sith returning, and Anakin, that it seems the Force is just fine. If the Force is just fine, and the Sith still were running around (albeit in the Shadows), then it isn't just the mere existence of the Sith that is the problem. It's how powerful they have become.

Another factor to think about is the response by the Force and why the Force decides that it is time for the Chosen One to be born. If it was just the mere existence of the Sith that causes an imbalance, then the Force surely would have created the Chosen One much sooner. However, it isn't until Sidious starts his move upwards and starts his rise to power that the Force reacts. Again, just in my humble opinion, it seems that it isn't the existence of the Sith that is the problem, it is how powerful they had become that threw the Force out of whack.

If Sidious fell in the shower (12 years before the events of TPM) and broke his neck and dies, and Maul went on to carry on the Sith tradition, then I believe the Force never brings Anakin into being, because there is no need for him... The Sith keep going on in the shadows. The Force stays in balance, and everything is okie dai... Just like it had been for the mellenia previous...

That's just my opinion though, which could obviously be wrong.

I would imagine that the answer to your last paragraph would be that because of the nature of the Dark Side and how powerful it had become by throwing the Force out of balance, that Vader wasn't going to mope around the galaxy.

It's a fun little "what if" scenario, but, it would never happen just because of the nature of the Dark Side.

 

They believe hes the chosen one but they dont no for sure. He actually is the chosen one and the force has created him into the most gifted jedi ever (full potential Anakin is greatest jedi ever) and only he can bring balance. He takes a different path that he decides to take but eventually brings balance.

 

The mere presence of the Sith isn't the problem. It is what they did during a particular period of time. Palpatine began to shift the Force out of balance by playing a political game that resulted in the lines between good and evil becoming blurred. Good was evil and evil was good. Fear, anger, hate and greed were the order of the day. The Jedi believed that the Sith were gone and thus the prophecy was not true. Qui-gon was contacted by Serenity who took him to the Force planet and tested him so that he could then begin to learn from a Shaman of the Whills on how to retain his identity. He was made aware that he was going to find someone significant and he did.

In AOTC, Yoda says that the shroud of the dark side has fallen now after the Battle of Geonosis. The dark side has grown throughout the universe and the Force needs to be balanced.

 

I agree with darth-sinister. The Sith prior to Papatine were merely trying to survive waiting till the right moment to destroy the Jedi and claim their revenge. When Palpatine started his plot to take over the Republic, the Force began to be out of balance. It wasn´t just the Sith existence but what they did what throwed the Force out of balance. The fact that Anakin is discovered just when Palpatine put in motion his plan isn´t a coincidence.

 

Who gave the original prophecy of the chosen one in the first place? How long ago was it even made? No one ever answered that in these films.

 

Maybe it will be mention in the ST.

 

They weren't important.

 

How is that of any relevance? It's an old Jedi prophecy, that's all the audience needs to know.

 

IMHO, Mace Windu's prophecy of Anakin being the "chosen one", aka, the one who would bring balance to the force, stands correct.

But since the Force is difficult to read and predict, it turned out that Anakin brought balance to the force in a weird and unexpected way.
And then I have 2 ways of seeing this, being:

1 - Anakin plunged the Force into utter darkness, but it was his own progeny who brought balance back, making him completely responsible for that deed too.
2 - Anakin's last act of redemption and sacrifice to save his own son, momentarily made him be once again the Republic paladin he was on the Clone Wars era, thus
killing Sidious (core problem) and putting the Force back into balance.

But then again, it's just my take on this !

 

Because it would be nice to put some context to this prophecy and actually know what it says. It is never even quoted or reason given why there might be someone bringing balance to the Force.

 

Why care about a plot point we hardly know anything about?

 

The prophecy as far as I know reads like this "A chosen will be born who will bring balance to the force" Not word for word perfect but that's pretty much the general meaning. Now upon reading that, what does it tell us?. Basically when the force becomes unbalanced the force will correct it by creating a chosen one who will restore the balance to it's original state.
Now there are 2 arguments as to it's meaning. Number 1) Destroying the Sith. Number 2) Balancing the numbers of the Sith and the Jedi (Say 2 each).
The thing that sticks out for me is this, Why the force go to all the trouble of creating a prophecy, then making the prophecy come true only to balance the numbers so the Sith could then continue to unbalance the force?. It makes the prophecy completely redundant. The only logical answer is to destroy the Sith making sure they could not continue to unbalance it.

 

It's the classic "legend tells...". And context is given. It's a Jedi prophecy that only the Jedi know about and believe in. A being conceived by midi-chlorians would destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force. What else do we need to know?

The reason is shown to the audience with the rise of the Sith and their dark influence.

 

"The Force is imbalanced" is just a fancy (I was going to say flavorful, but I feel like distasteful is more fitting my opinion) way of saying it's a bad time for the galaxy. "Bring the Force back into balance" is just a fancy way of saying "kill the Sith", because that's all it means.

So you could get rid of this whole balance of the Force thing and just have the Jedi say that this is a bad time for the Republic, and to make things right they need to destroy the Sith. That's all. That way, they could speak like normal people, and cut out the vague esoteric talk that has no real meaning. It would certainly be less fancy and artful that way, and that's almost certainly bad, but it would cut down on the nonsense. Or, you could make this whole balance of the Force idea actually significant. That's another option.

You could also make the prophecy more significant, you could flesh it out and make it seem like an important part of the story. Or you could try, at least. You'd fail, because it's simply not an important part of the plot. Never was, never intended to be, not even in the PT. It's just another dash of flavor, a sprinkling of salt; a garnish, really.

 

the force seemed out of balance to me. the dark side was clouded so much palps was right under their nose and the prophecy wasn't mace's it was very, very old.

 

I don't agree with your first point, I think it was before then the force was out of balance when it was Plagueis and Sidious who where around. They where unbalancing the force with all there experiments trying to create life and so on, it's just after that that the chosen one is born.

 

I think the whole topic of good, evil and balance is too complex and murky for anyone to truly understand. Frankly, I think the whole subject matter is too chaotic for a clear, cut answer.

 

People need to look at the Mortis Arc of TCW to understand what Lucas means by "balance" between light and dark.

(For those who don't know, the Son is a being who represents the embodiment of the dark side, and the Daughter is a being who represents the embodiment of the light side. As near as I can tell, the Dagger of Mortis represents the unnatural forces of conscious, premeditated violence--distinct from the natural forces of instinctive, animalistic violence, which are safely embodied by the Son as necessary and proper components of the greater cosmic balance. The Father represents the Cosmic Force whose role is to maintain the balance between light and dark.)

The Force becomes unbalanced on Mortis because of the Son's ambition for greater power. As the Daughter says, it's not really his fault--it's in his nature. But it causes unbalance all the same. Meanwhile, it simply isn't in the Daughter's nature to desire greater power, and so she generally will not be the cause of any potential imbalance in the Force.

In desperation, the Daughter tries to use the Dagger of Mortis to destroy the Son, but in the end the Dagger ends up being the agent of her own destruction when the Son accidentally impales her with it. We see that the Son is wracked with grief over his sister's death; he never intended for it to happen. The only reason the Sister was destroyed was because she herself tried to destroy the Son.

At this point, the Son must be destroyed, but only because the Daughter was destroyed first. It will no longer be enough just to talk the Son down from his quest for power. The only way to restore the balance is to eliminate him completely. But as we've seen with the Daughter, it is folly for a light side user to attempt to use the Dagger to destroy the Son. The Dagger is the natural weapon of the Son, and any attempts to use it against him will only end up empowering the Son further.

But there's a loophole. The Dagger can be used in an act of self-destruction, and this will in fact rob the Son of his power. This is what the Father finally realizes and takes advantage of. He impales himself with the Dagger and in so doing brings out the last ounce of goodness buried deep within his Son. This subversion of his own nature renders the Son temporarily vulnerable, and Anakin takes advantage of this moment to impale him with his Jedi weapon, thus balancing the Force on Mortis and proving his destiny as the Chosen One. The Father then becomes one with the Force, signifying that despite all that has transpired, nothing has truly been destroyed.

This last part is of course just a metaphor for all that will later transpire in the Emperor's throne room in Episode VI. Anakin fulfills his natural destiny as a Sith by overpowering and destroying his master, but the dark side nature of the act is instantly balanced by its simultaneous nature as a compassionate act of self-sacrifice. Anakin turns the Dagger on himself, and this is how he finally forces the Emperor to become weak before him. Anakin, still technically a Sith Lord, has nonetheless had the last ounce of good brought out from deep within himself, thanks to Luke. Luke takes Anakin's helmet off, making him vulnerable. Anakin then takes advantage of his own vulnerability to allow himself to die, thereby destroying the last of the Sith (himself) and fulfilling the prophecy once and for all. He then becomes one with the Force, forever preserving the balance he achieved within himself at the moment of his death.

 

We do know what it says. Obi-wan tells us in ROTS and in ROTJ, we see it. The why is told in AOTC, the Sith start a war which brings about the imbalance and results in the Sith taking control. Pretty simple.

 

For whatever reason some people seem to want to insist that the mere existence of the Sith intrinsically causes an imbalance as opposed to their actions.

Why this is the case when the movies quite clearly demonstrate this is not the case I don't know. Obviously the Jedi feel no great imbalance starting until after the events of TPM. Obviously the Sith have existed for the previous thousand years since their oppression came to an end but nothing that was an great imbalance out of the norm.

The Dark side was gaining strength between TPM and AOTC and then the shroud fell with the start of the Clone Wars.

This continues until ultimately the Sith are destroyed in ROTJ.

The overarching broad strokes are quite clear. The arguing of what exactly means what is in the details.

 

Although I agree with your first point, which is that it is through actions that lead to imbalance in the force, I don't agree with your second point.

Looking at it the Sith where at there most powerful before and until the end of TPM, Where they had Palgueis, Sidious and Maul until the end when it was just Sidious. Then in AOTC it was Sidious and Dooku, Then finally in ROTS where it was at the end Sidious and Vader. The only thing that gained power as far as the films are concerned is Palpatine's political power which the force isn't concerned about. The force is a state which only cares about maintaining it's state, not the in's and out's of politics, wars, crime and others things. Of course there are arguments one could make to say Palpatine grow in strength during the films but as we don't know how strong he was before TPM we can't say at what point he was at his strongest.

When Yoda makes the remark about "The shroud of the darkside has fallen" I believe it's just his fancy way of saying that the Sith have returned, not about the strength of the darkside.

To me the light and Dark side are like clouds, for example, say you have 2 clouds a normal cloud then behind it a black storm cloud both the same size. When you look at it all you can see is the normal cloud (Because it's blocking out the cloud behind it, making it difficult if not impossible to see it), But if holes where to appear or the normal cloud begins to thin and disappear then the light from the darker cloud behind it will start to show through allowing you to see the cloud behind. Maybe with the number of Jedi being killed throughout the films thus lessening the amount of light that's why it was easier for them to see the darkside (Don't forget it was after the Jedi massacre on Genosis where a lot of Jedi where killed, that Yoda made that statement).

As for when the unbalancing of the force took place (For me personally) it was before TPM simply because the Chosen one was born before TPM. Anakin was 5,6,7 years old (Sorry I can't remember exactly) when Qui-Gon found him. His being born was a reaction from the force because it was being unbalanced. If the unbalancing of the force was at the beginning or during TPM then Anakin would have been born afterwards, but like I said he had already been born and was a young boy at the time of TPM.

 

I bring balance to the Force



One logic fail is that if you remove all Sith, and there's still Jedi, shouldn't that still be imbalanced? They'll be more Jedi, thus tipping the scale toward them. weouf[peufr