Does anybody still think that George Lucas is a genius?

Shelley, maybe you should see the film before making uninformed defenses and conclusions about lucas's "theft" of images, shot composition, characters and themes.

there is an excellent thread in the epi III spoiler forum with many examples and images of the kurosawa "influence" called "Is Akira Kurosawa the key? Ep 3" i did not make a link because i think there is some rule about linking to spoilers from another forum.

 

[face_shocked]

You should NEVER see Hidden Fortress!

It will destroy all that you have fought & suffered for!

 

1) Shot-by-shot account of WWII footage (I believe this is on the AOTC disc extras). Even the actors look and act exactly the same way... no deviation.

Uh-huh.... Your point being? The recreation of footage in a new setting with a new meaning is not theft--it's a standard technique. We're talking over at the AotC forum about the mirror imaging with the Michelangelo's pieta. That's brilliant because of the evocations. The same is true of the WWII footage.

2) Lightswords, Hyperdrive, Empire, Alliance Rebellion (taken straight from 30's short-story serials

Which Lucas has said from the start are a source of what he's doing... where's this sense of deep betrayal you feel? SF authors all borrow from one another. His Empire is a mix of all Empires.


- EE. "Doc" Smith, Asimov's "Foundation Series" [Intergalactic government that becomes too bloated with beauracracy - not that we don't see this every day ).

And Asimov ripped it off from The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, and admitted it. What's your point? Actually, I shouldn't say "admitted" like there's anything wrong with it. He stated it outright, because that's what he did and it's part of the process.

3) A direct plot rip off of Kurosawa's "Hidden Fortress".

Plot is a skeleton. A lot of great movies recycle plots.

4) C3PO and R2D2 are direct copies of the bumbling "jester and servant" from "Hidden Fortress".

Shrug.

b) Almost all of his names of both people and places are taken from actual names of places... I.E. Endor, Tatooine, Jedi...

And? So what? You can't copyright a place name, and real names give a feeling of comfort.

I think you're misdefining "plagiarism." You can't copyright ideas, names, history, facts, etc, and you therefore cannot plagiarise them. They're part of what people use as tools in creating stories. You can't plagiarise a "character type." Visual homage is extremely common among filmmakers; it's a game they play with each other and the audience. You can plagiarise particular bits of dialogue, particular trademarked words and characters, etc. But you can't plagiarise some general idea or plotline.

 

"Uh-huh.... Your point being? The recreation of footage in a new setting with a new meaning is not theft--it's a standard technique. "

since when is this a standard technique? any examples?

also, yes people borrow ideas and are influenced and what not, but it seems thats all lucas has to offer - copies and reworkings of other peoples ideas?

ill ask again... what is lucas's style? what is uniquely lucas about his films other than he inherits plots and ideas from other sources, thereby also adopting the "deeper meanings".

 

Hidden Fortress IS ANH. Now, if you're going to "borrow" from something, why not the best? At least we can give Lucas this much credit.

When I'm talking about "lightswords", "Empire (Galactic/Evil)", "Alliance"... I am talking about direct references. I.E. The Galactic Republic ("Foundation"), The Rebel Alliance (E.E. "Doc" Smith).

DUNE is a symetry of ideas that have been lifted from historical/sociological/theological/environmental ideals. These ideals are given completely new form. I.E. Machines, made by many man, owned by few men, enslave the race of man. Man overthrows machines and in doing so realizes just how frail a being he/she is. He creates schools that focus on the fundamentals of human existance. 1) Politics. Say what you want, but the politiking of the human species is a constant (which is why it admirably shows up in Star Wars). 2) Mathematics.

Every form of human thought, at it's absolute most basic and intrinsic, can be broken down into these two groups. This is a paradigmal shift in how we've been brought up to think. Classic ideology depicts many, varied forms of human thought, but Herbert brakes it down to these two fundamental ideas - revolutionary (makes you wonder why he didn't start a "religion" as say L.Ron "the quack" Hubbard did... but then I guess Herbert realized just how incredibly dangerous the religious zealot can be... without an infinately free form to springboard from).

Star Wars is synthetic knowledge in the simple way that all it does is "reclothe" what is known. DUNE is unique in it's synthetic knowledge because it creates fundamental paradigm shifts in the way that we actually think - "I shall not fear...", "man is an instinctual animal, nothing more until he/she directly proves under reactive observation that he/she is not." Now, whether you buy into these forms of thought is irrelevent. The simple fact remains, that the vast majority of Herbert's DUNE is a unique masterpiece, albiet, combining many classical forms of storytelling within it's structure.

And no, "Luke, I am your father" is not a paradigmal, fundamental shift in conscious and unconscious thought. It is a pradigmal shift in story and character, not global consciouness. Now many could argue that Nitzche is behind many of Herbert's biological philosophies, but that's another discussion (and one that I'd be more than happy to entertain).

 

since when is this a standard technique? any examples?

It always has been. Best recent example is Chris Columbus talking about the climax of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, which is apparently a shot by shot homage to the climax of North by Northwest, shot on a statue of Salazar Slytherin instead of Mt. Rushmore. The salient point of that is not so much that an example can be produced from the past year as that I didn't need to deduce this--Columbus says it outright in interviews... that pretty much establishes that it's an accepted, well-known practice that people don't consider at all hinky.


also, yes people borrow ideas and are influenced and what not, but it seems thats all lucas has to offer - copies and reworkings of other peoples ideas?

It's the reworking that makes anyone's story different from anyone else's. Lucas said he was making a fairy tale/myth, and all of those are reworkings of older tales.

ill ask again... what is lucas's style? what is uniquely lucas about his films other than he inherits plots and ideas from other sources, thereby also adopting the "deeper meanings" like your mirroring of the pieta example.

I'll ask again, what the devil is the problem with this? His unique ability is to join disparate sources and put them together to create a new and vibrant myth.

And no, "Luke, I am your father" is not a paradigmal, fundamental shift in conscious and unconscious thought. It is a pradigmal shift in story and character, not global consciouness.

To the contrary, what it addresses is the issue of the evil which lurks in all of us, and ultimately to the redemption which also does. It's not a new idea--there are no new ideas--but it's fundamentally altered the landscape. People now simply assume that there will be a redemption from evil in popular films.

 

Shelley, maybe you should see the film before making uninformed defenses and conclusions about lucas's "theft" of images, shot composition, characters and themes.

I did no such thing, DrEvazan. In fact, I asked the person making the charges of ripping off and plagiarism questions on both points: what is the direct plot ripoff and, in response to his charge that R2D2 and C3PO are ripped off from two HF characters: "What, are the characters robots?"

You should NEVER see Hidden Fortress!

It will destroy all that you have fought & suffered for!

I doubt it, Punisher. I don't watch movies through basher-tinted glasses.

But, I'll make sure to rent it next time I go to Blockbuster.

 

"I'll ask again, what the devil is the problem with this? His unique ability is to join disparate sources and put them together to create a new and vibrant myth."

how is it new and vibrant? it is the same myth in different clothes and rather than touching on the same themes lucas's "myth" merely repeats the themes identically.

"What, are the characters robots?"

no, but that is about the only difference. the emperor just put new clothes on the characters.

 

It's new because it's using sources from all over the world and all kinds of different cultures in a way that hasn't been done before, from Renaissance Catholocism (in the pieta scene) the Buddha of Infinite Light (Amida Buddha arising from the lotus, or padme). It brings in recent history and ancient history, and comments on them in a way that is particularly relevant now--the prequels particularly are uncomfortable to many people because of their theme of controlling the ultimate power in a society that has it--a message that makes a lot of Americans pretty uncomfortable.

You can tell it's vibrant by the number of people who are drawn to it and want to argue with about it--just look at these forums if you don't believe the material we're here to talk about isn't vibrant.

There are only so many themes out there; that much is true. This doesn't strike me as problematic. Certain themes become ascendant at different times.

no, but that is about the only difference. the emperor just put new clothes on the characters.

Yes... you change the context and create new versions of the same old archetypical characters. We also saw them in Shakespeare--the servants at the beginning of Romeo and Juliet and various other characters who act as commentators--and Shakespeare certainly took them from elsewhere (most of Shakespeare was taken from elsewhere; that doesn't make him any less of a genius). Characters also boil down to certain basic types, and they're going to repeat.

 

I've never bought the "storytelling genius" label that everybody seems to give Lucas because his influences to me are way too obvious, and his best work seems to always come when he has collaboraters, but George IS a genius business man and visionary when it comes to the future of cinema. THX and Lucasarts were the creations of a man who really knew what he was doing, I really admire George for his talent in this area, and with his push for digital cinema. The guy IS a genius but not a storytelling one, he just knows what people want and goes for it.

edit: I also believe we're selling the guy short by just labeling him a storyteller, because his non-Star Wars companies are going to have much further reaching implications than the PT or the OT.

 

"Does anybody still think that George Lucas is a genius?"

Yes, I still do.

Thank you.

 

Just so everyone knows... I'm not arguing that George's approach is a bad thing. Who wouldn't borrow from such a huge canvase that history/myth/cosmic-love has to offer? George has taken some really classic stories, redressed them, and then (in some cases) fed them back to us? Why? Because these classic stories are part of our heritage as a species, part of our innate sense of myth... it's why they work as stories. I'm not convinced at all that he (George) has pulled this "revisioning" off to any affect (refering to ROTJ - some parts - and the PT films). It looks "pretty", but that's about it.

 

Lucas bought the idea of THX, he did not create it. And thein lies his genius (if he has any). It's in the recognition of the genius of others, which takes (I guess) a sense of genius. Like Ford, George is not inventing anything new. But he has the clout now to surround himself with geniuses. George has always been at his best as a collaberator (storywise), but then again, even the mighty fall (Willow, Howard the Duck, Radioland Murders...) from time to time.

 

Since the link that Dr E. was talking about at the top is linked to the EP3 spoiler forum, I decided to bring some of those excellent pics here for comparison and discussion. Thanks to the members for their pics (esp. bad radio)

[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/DV2.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/DV1.JPG]

General Tadokoro (left) is from The Hidden Fortress. A General who swtiched sides and who was scarred after a duel with his Master, General Makabe (inspiration of Obi-Wan). Tadokoro is scarred after his shameful defeat.

The following are pics from Hidden Fortress and Seven Samurai. This is just barely scratching the surface.

[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Noarm1.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Wampa.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/BenVader.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/BenVader3.jpeg]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/BenVader2.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/OW2.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/AA1.JPG] [image=http://theforce.net/episode2/newspics/forbidden/29.jpg]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/OA1.JPG] [image=http://theforce.net/episode2/newspics/forbidden/11.jpg]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/JJ1.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/JJ2.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/TF1.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/TF2.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Sbike2.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Sbike3.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Rokurota.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Quigon.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/GenPrin.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/GenPrin2.JPG]
[image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Greed.JPG] [image=http://ourworld.cs.com/Three558821/Greed3.JPG]

I'm sure there are some who will say "Oh, those pics are stretching it!", but they are not random. Lucas has said so himself Akira Kurosawa was his idol and one of his inspirations for becoming a filmmaker, and he even named a section of Skywalker Ranch after Kurosawa. George also executive-produced Kagemusha (1980), along with Francis Ford Coppolla and Kurosawa.

 

So what, exactly, is your problem, JW00? If Lucas actually "stole" those ideas/images from Kurosawa, he wouldn't voluntarily acknowledge how heavily Kurosawa influenced him. And I doubt that if Kurosawa truly felt ripped off, he'd be co-producing anything with Lucas.

If I was a filmmaker, I'd be flattered that a guy who's created something as amazing as SW named me as their "idol."

If anything, SW brought a whole new generation, if not multiple generations, of viewers to Kurosawa's films. I find those parallel shots (not all of which are parallel) between Kurosawa's film and SW to be fascinating, and not for the reason you probably intended.

 

So Shelley, where is Lucas' genius? Aside from acknowledging and borrowing from others, doesn't genius denote (really not sure) a sense of true originality?

Again, not saying he is or he's not, just want to see how you respond.

 

Most homages like that are for fun--a game. Lucas quite openly acknowledges Kurosawa and specifically the Seven Samurai as influences. So he plays with them. None of this is new to SW fans... what exactly is the point of this?

Lucas reinterprets and recontextualizes them, mixing and matching, finding new language for these old stories to make them relevant again.

 

He is a genius in the way he takes his influences and tells a captivating story, which, although the individual elements are not new, is told in a new and fascinating way, replete with layers and hidden meanings.

 

No.

He once was. But he's starting to loose his edge.

George was a genius for the colloborations he used to make Spielberg, Mcquarrie, Kasdan, Kirshner (he has an afinity with the letter k ).

But no more. His directing is stodgy at best. And I won't even go into story writing and editing.

After seeing Radioland murders and Willow we can rest assured he is not a genius.

But I'm glad we can compare him to other younger filmmakers. Who have been making more quality movies than him recently.


Oh sorry, I seemed to have bumped into a conversation.

Edit: I just read some of the discussion from page 1. Is he a genius because of TPM? HELL NO. That's one of the most disgusting pieces ever committed to celluloid.

The long shot of Anakin, Obi Wan, Padme and Palpatine at Qui Gon's funeral in TPM.

I'll give you that shot is beautiful. One of the best in TPM. And most reminiscent of the OT. But Luke at the homestead in the OT is more dynamic (same music btw).

And that's what the PT is lacking, being dynamic. Everybody just seems to stand around in front of the camera. No motion.

You guys can go on with your conversation now .

 

Shelley: Watch "Hidden Fortress". My guess is that you'll even appreciate Lucas more based upon your past responses. I can understand where you're coming from as I'm sure you can understand where most everyone else comes from. We just (as I'm sure you do) appreciate the ability to question and critique. It's what makes all of this so damn fun!

 

If you think Lucas is a genius, you should not read the book Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa. Just about every character from SW is ripped straight from this single book. It?s been sited as a source by Lucas, but by the time I got around to reading it I was amazed at just how close Lucas blurred the line between inspiration and outright thievery. Musashi is the fictional account of one of Japan?s most famous Samurai, Musashi Miyamoto. Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Count Dooku, Amidala, Luke and Leia, Jango and Boba Fett, Shmi, Uncle Owen, the Emperor, the Jedi Council, Yoda, and Anakin?all of them are taken from this book.

 

Btw, Lucas is a genius, from a certain point of view. Just not a story-telling genius anymore.

All his businesses: THX, ILM, Skywalker Sound etc.


Edit: Isn't Endor a name from Tolkien's Middle-Earth?

 

I have no problem with a nice homage/wink here and there, and in fact, I think they can be cool. ANH, which I love, has its roots in a lot of other literary/popular sources that I admire, and it's great to see these connections (like samurai and wizards) told in a new way and in a new genre.

But the question here is whether that should be considered true genius -- is it re-interpretation or simple re-packaging? I don't really have a problem if Lucas does a few homages, but how come they have to be so exact, so close to the original source? Couldn't the artist who created a shot change/alter it a little? I don't have the pic, but The Searchers pic of Anakin looking over a cliff is the exact same composition as John Ford's movie, with Paulie looking over the cliff. Why didn't they change it a little? How come this picture of Amidala has to almost exactly the same as its source?
[image=http://www.jitterbug.com/origins/pix/pix_amidala.jpg]

Yes, it can be flattering if another filmmaker idolizes and imitates you, but after a while, when you do it to such an exhaustive extent, it can be a little overdone and unflattering. It's as if Lucas is "mining" Kurosawa's body of work and re-doing it in his own way. Of course, Kurosawa says his idol was director John Ford, so there is a chain of influence there. That I won't deny. But I just wish some of what Lucas "borrows" wouldn't be so close (in some cases identical) to their source material. If he pressed further and put in an extra 10% effort, he could change what he borrows a little, making these homages less blatant. The mainstream public probably wouldn't care if Jedis are really Samurai, or that Obi-Wan's death in ANH is similar to Gandalf's death in the novels. But the people who do catch onto these things, it sticks out like a sore thumb sometimes and one could question, validly, whether this is genius or not.

To sum up, I think Lucas has his merits and has certain skills and talent, but I wouldn't go so far to call it 'genius' right now. If he does a non-Star Wars picture and astounds me, I may change my mind. But as I see it now, with the PT and everything, no.

Genius, in my view, is someone who innovates and creates a style all their own. They spill their guts into their work and you see the passion in it. I would call Martin Scorsese, Orson Welles, and Stanley Kubrick "geniuses". And in some moments, I think Steven Spielberg (if you overlook all of his commercial success) has some moments of genius. These filmmakers have their own distinct voice when you see their movies and it's in some cases it's purely from their soul. Spielberg and Scorsese put in their own beliefs/ideas and small idiosynchrasies into their work, and their body of work identifies them. One could try and imitate Spielberg or Scorsese, but what about Lucas? What style does he have -- what did he innovate or where is the evidence he poured a little of his own ideas/thoughts into his work? Okay, there's his love of cars and speed that is evident. But I'm looking for more ideas from "George Lucas'" own brain, not an idea from another book or movie he saw.

And finally, why are these posters (Doctor Zhivago/AOTC) so identical?! Argh!
[image=http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00003CXKT.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg] [image=http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00003CX9M.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg]

 

John Ford?s The Searchers vs. George Lucas?s Attack of the Clones:

[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/searchers1.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/tuskencamp1.JPG]

[image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/searchers2.JPG] [image=http://members.cox.net/znthorpe/tuskencamp2.JPG]

 

Isn't Endor a name from Tolkien's Middle-Earth?

It's from the Bible. Saul consults the ghost of Samuel there, with help from the witch of Endor.