Lit Does Darth Caedus suck as a villain?

The series really builds up the facts that Caedus is a head above the rest of the Jedi, his only equal being Luke Skywalker. He is also shown to be extremely ruthless. He works quite well as the villain of the series.

The EU was the answer for the millions of fans clamouring for more SW. They couldn't of had a better idea. Anytime there is a beloved series with new additions people will find a reason to complain. How many people do you think would complain if someone decided to write a sequel to Tolkien's work? Art can neever be perfect in the eye of every beholder.

 

I think I said somewhere else that I didn't have a problem with Jacen becoming Darth Caedus. Yes, he is a petulant teenager who wanted to be special so bad that he went...messianic and psycho in the head. The dark side does that. It's bad for one's health. His good intentions became rotten by his own choices and compromises, and the dark side further poisoned him. But he did release himself from it in a controversial way. He's meant to be controversial in many respects. He's almost the Magneto of Star Wars, albeit a more reviled Magneto instead of a popular one.

My opinion is rather complicated on the matter. I liked Legacy of the Force as much as the Yuuzhan Vong/New Jedi Order series. And I'm probably in the minority for that, and it's cool. However, I'm a huge fan of Jaina Solo, and I was deeply moved by her side of the story. I felt bad for Luke, Leia, Han, and others, including the morally complex Fett himself. I buy into the idea that Vergere and Lumiya were bad influences on Jacen and that his idealism and desire for peace became so intense in his mind that he lost it in a dark desire to bring absolute peace. He genuinely wanted to save the galaxy and inflict little harm, but he rationalized his actions by saying that hurting and killing a minority was good for the majority. Sadly, many great men in real life often turn into Caeduses.

"It's always the good men who do the most harm in the world."
- Henry Adams, regarding Robert E. Lee

(I'm not comparing Lee to Caedus. I think Robert E. Lee has more in common with Grand Admiral Thrawn, personally.)

Now, Darth Caedus and his apprentice are very interesting characters, I must say. I'll take a moment to advertise this for Evan, since I'm a fan of his. This should be an interesting analysis.

 

That's certainly the way he's portrayed in the Galaxy of Intrigue Saga Edition book (the section on GAG discusses Jacen) - that his ends are the same, but his means have become radically different, and that, twisted as he became - his goals did not change.

 

I need to check that out.

 

I'll quote the bits that reference Jacen:

THE GALACTIC ALLIANCE GUARD
.....
For five years, the Galactic Alliance directs efforts to rebuild a galaxy devastated by the Yuuzhan Vong. In the face of growing protests and violent terrorist groups opposing the increasingly dictatorial methods of the government, a covert branch of Alliance Intelligence is formed. Termed the Galactic Alliance Guard (GAG) this secret police force is dedicated to finding and eliminating those who threaten galactic peace and order.

From its founding, the GAG is led by Jedi Knight Jacen Solo, who is severely scarred by trauma experienced during the Yuuzhan Vong War. As a result, he brings an overzealous and coldhearted attitude to his duties, giving those under his command leave to use any methods to identify enemies of the Alliance and force them to reveal their comrades. The GAG is soon feared across the galaxy by common citizens from every walk of life, no matter what their political bent.

The fanaticism and brutality with which Jacen Solo and the GAG hunt down those considered to be enemies of peace lead him to fall prey to the corrupt guidance of Lumiya, a self-styled Dark Lady of the Sith. Jane's excesses grow more severe, and eventually he gives himself fully to the dark side and is reborn as Darth Caedus. He then turns the GAG apparatus toward elevating himself to the position of leader of the Galactic Alliance and in doing so triggers the Second Galactic Civil War.

Darth Caedus is killed in a lightsaber duel by his twin sister, Jedi Knight Jaina Solo, in 41 ABY. That same year, many of the GAG's top operatives are killed during a failed operation in the Corellian System.

GOALS

The Galactic Alliance Guard is founded to protect government institutions and citizens from violent terrorist attacks being coordinated primarily from Corellia. Later, the organization expands its mandate to target anyone their leader views as a threat to galactic peace and to his own power. Anyone who expresses a negative opinion of the Galactic Alliance risks brutal interrogation in the GAG's holding cells at its Coruscant headquarters or aboard its mobile command center, an Imperial II-class Star Destroyer named the Anakin Solo.

The GAG wants to seem as omnipresent as the intelligence apparatus of Palpatine's Empire had been, and it wants to inspire the same level of fear in the populace. On Coruscant, the group achieves this goal, although on Corellia, the GAG only hardens resistance against the central government, inspires further terrorism, and ultimately is one of the catalysts of the Second Galactic Civil War.

Once Jacen Solo falls to the dark side and seizes the reins of galactic power, the GAG becomes his personal enforcement tool. Anyone he views as standing in the way of his personal goals - which involve bringing about a lasting peace by forcing the galaxy to obey his will - is targeted for imprisonment or assassination.

After Jacen Solo's defeat, the GAG is formally disbanded. If any of the organisation's top operatives survive, it is likely that they continue to operate in secret as the Galactic Alliance reestablishes itself (now under the leadership of Grand Moff Tarkin's one-time mistress Daala) and that they harbor particular animosity toward Corellians.

METHODS
.....
When Jacen Solo assumes the identity of Darth Caedus, the GAG morphs into a brutal paramilitary force that orchestrates assassinations and engages in commando operations augmented by the Anakin Solo.

NOTABLE MEMBERS

In its early days, the GAG includes a wide swath of top-of-the-line operatives from four decades of galactic intelligence operations; it is a veritable who's-who of spies and law enforcement personnel. Shortly before the death of Jacen Solo, however, the group consists more of operatives who have been drummed out of various intelligence services than of those who have served with honor.

Jacen Solo (Darth Caedus)
As a young man, Jacen Solo is a gentle Jedi whose empathy for all living things causes him to develop a number of Force skills related to animals and nature. However, torture at the hands of the Yuuzhan Vong and the death of his younger brother Anakin darkens and stunts Jacen's spirit. He becomes easy prey for the dark side, and when he gets a taste of real power as the head of the GAG, it claims him.

Jacen is an officer who leads from the front. He never asks his agents to perform tasks that he himself is not willing to do, and he personally conducts some of the most brutal raids, most vicious interrogations, and bloodiest assassinations. Jacen even attempts to assassinate his own parents when he comes to the conclusion that they are plotting against both him and the Galactic Alliance - Han Solo is a Corellian, after all.

Despite his dark and violent turn, Jacen's heart remains committed to the same goal he has followed since childhood: bringing peace and harmony to those around him. But, twisted as he is by the dark side, he intents to force that peace and harmony on the galaxy on his terms.

USING THE GALACTIC ALLIANCE GUARD

The GAG is nearly perfect for a campaign in which the Gamemaster wants to hit a range of intrigue-related story points. When it is first formed, the GAG is a place where law enforcers and covert agents (such as the heroes) use their skills to prevent terrorism and ferret out those who would disrupt the hard-won peace enjoyed by the galaxy after the defeat of the Yuuzhan Vong.

But as time goes on, the heroes realize that their missions increasingly are directed not at terrorist sympathisers and insurgents but at harmless writers or politicians who have questioned the government's direction. At this point, the heroes might be approached by someone working for another branch of the regime or for the Jedi Order who seeks their help to determine Jacen Solo's true agenda.

This contact might be sincere or might be a plant sent by Jacen Solo to test the party's loyalty. Depending on their interests, the heroes might find themselves at odds with the GAG, or they might become Jacen's trusted minions and help support his overthrow of the Galactic Alliance leadership, whom he views as having betrayed the public trust.

The GAG can also be used as a simple replacement for the stormtroopers and Imperial Intelligence officers of the Rebellion era, but putting the heroes on the inside and having them gradually realize the truth about the organization is a more exciting story prospect.

 

I pretty much agree with all of this. While some authors may have handled Jacen/Caedus better than others, I overall was able to buy his turn to the dark side. As I said before, Caedus was motivated by his loss of his brother, Anakin Solo, and being scarred during the Yuuzhan Vong War. If memory serves me, he just more political, driven, and I daresay messianic than anything else. That seemed to override all of his love for anyone, platonic or romantic. There's nothing wrong with being a petulant child/teenager who has very idealistic ambitions, but when one becomes an adult, one has to become more of a realist than an idealist. I once believed that one could be equally both, but I didn't have to just turn 29 last week just to know that. (During my twenties, I certainly could not afford to be very realistic. Otherwise, I'd be silly.) Realism calls on us to be mature. Caedus was driven by his yearning and longing to make a better world, but it also consumed him. There was insecurity involved insofar as he felt the burden and prophecies meant for his brother, Anakin, had fallen to him. (That's just strange thinking to begin with, of course.) This developed into a twisted and obsessive desire to be more special than anyone. The dark side has a sentient aspect to it. The dark side took Caedus' noble goals and subverted them to an extent. However, he did bring a kind of peace to the galaxy by uniting it against him. One could argue that that was the will of the Force in a way, by having the light side flow through Luke, Leia, Jaina, and even Boba Fett and having the dark side flow through Caedus and his damaged apprentice. That's one way to look at it on a more cosmic level, if one believes that the light and dark side of the Force form a unified whole to a sentient, monistic entity. Jacen/Caedus often pondered philosophical questions. Vergere and Lumiya took advantage of this, but one cannot give them too much credit. They only encouraged what was already developing in Jacen's heart. Vergere was an Old Jedi Order member who had not only been tainted by Sidious but was probably lying about more things than even most fans know. Lumiya herself had her own ambitions and dreams of a perfect galaxy being in her legacy, but for her there was a selfish desire for revenge on many in the galaxy, including Luke, Mara, Leia, etc. I think she was lying to Caedus more than most fans would say. I mean, Caedus had his own reasons for choosing to go along with what Vergere and Lumiya taught him. He knew that their pasts and personalities were checkered, questionable, etc. He just felt that their wisdom outweighed any of their flaws. I tend to agree. I don't say that merely because Vergere and Lumiya are female characters. As far as Sith Lords go, I think they are my two favorite female Sith after Traya/Kreia. I feel sorry for both of them in some ways, but I would also be terrified to meet real people like them. Vergere is the kind of smart, elderly person who feels tainted but also feels empowered by her experience and reading. Lumiya is like many rape victims and other battered women who become powerful social activists. The difference is that Lumiya didn't try to help others who had been used and abused like her. Instead, she started acting like those who had harmed her, and I doubt she made the connection until she was older. Caedus probably admired them for different reasons, but both of them were telling him what he wanted to hear--what he longed to hear--that Luke and his family would never tell him. Caedus may had some jealousy and felt intimidation from being in the Skywalker lineage, and he wanted to prove himself a more powerful and more just leader than Leia and Luke. Just think about Smallville's Lex Luthor and Marvel CU's Loki. Both of them want to be better than their families while also finding favor with them and having revenge against them. As twisted as that sounds, that's actually a very human thing to do. Some historians and psychs say that George W. Bush felt the same way about his dad (i.e. wanting to outdo him and be better than him while also finding love from him). A lot more people do that than we think, and it's one of the strange aspects of human nature.

I could go on for days about the complexity of Caedus, and I think he is an important Shakespearean character of sorts, even if he wasn't always handled well by authors. I did appreciate EvanNova95's analysis that Darth Vader cold beat Darth Caedus. There is a criticism on this forum that Caedus should have had more in common with Palpatine than his grandfather, but I don't think so. I think that Caedus' perverted sense of justice is similar, but more idealistic, than the type his granddad espoused. Vader was more of a realist and damaged solider who simply desired order after he never got what he wanted. Caedus was idealistic in the sense that he lusted after the idea of being the savior the galaxy would remember for all entirety. Vader was icy enough to prefer being feared over being loved in a way. I think that for all his talk, Caedus did want fame and love more than he let on. He convinced himself that he didn't care if he was hated and he tried to believe that doing good for the galaxy meant he was to be despised, but I don't think he ever fully talked himself into the totality of such a belief. Jaina did, after all, sense that Caedus tried to help his true love and daughter before he died. Caedus was indeed a very fragile and damaged soul with insecurities, but one should recall that he did a lot more of the damage to himself than any war or figures like Vergere or Lumiya did.

Just my two cents. Insecurity can drive people to be tyrants, bullies, and even misguided political reformers. Insecurity is in the most narcissistic and megalomaniacal individuals. That's a more Adlerian way of looking at it per se from affect psychology, but it has some truth to it. If people can't deal with their shame and insecurity, they "attack other," "avoid," "withdraw," or "attack self." Caedus was doing a lot of the first two, but he did some of the latter two, as well.

 

Darth Caedus is a villain I've come to accept is what killed the EU for me.

I grew up with Jacen Solo so I can't think of any EU where he'd turn evil.

Then the series had his sister kill him.

Luke Skywalker, who didn't give up on Space Himmler, gives up on his nephew.

And the series ends with Caedus' damnation.

Yeah, that's just the most anti-Star Wars thing ever written.

 

ah this thread again. hello old friend

 

The thing is, I was actually a cheerleader for the Darth Caedus concept for the majority of the series. I was assuming, on some level, we'd kept some insight into what was driving him forward but Darth Caedus didn't have any real resemblance to the Jacen Solo I knew. He was a caricatured version of Darth Vader who was desperately, madly, wildly concerned about the safety of his daughter who he barely knows but ignores his actual loving family--up to the point of trying to kill them multiple times.

His motivations is, apparently, some sort of generic "save the galaxy from itself" but he rapidly expands the conflict repeatedly and causes millions of deaths for no reason whatsoever. His motivations also change repeatedly so we get the whole, 'prevent Ben/Allania from becoming a Sith' future that makes no damn sense.
I was expecting a twist, basically, and it took me until the end of the book to realize there was a real-life power-play going-on between Denning and Karen Traviss. It was funny to see them back-and-forth over Jedi vs. Mandalorians but this is representative of the larger problems with the series overall.

I prefer Denning, personally, but I think he was also determined to Deconstruct Star Wars redemption ideas and--I think that didn't need deconstruction.

 

I don't think there was a deeper thought put into it. The story existed for its own sake. Say what you will about the execution of the NJO, but it had a guiding theme to it which was building off of the films. Caedus shows that going over the writers' heads.

 

I'll never understand why people kept thinking this was a valid concept right up until the ending. Was it just pure "they couldn't be that dumb" denial?

 

Because Superheroes sometimes go evil. It's a valid concept.

Except, you need to reveal it's a clone, brainwashing, demonic possession, Sith poison, or whatever.

Revealing he's possessed by Marka Ragnos or whatever won't make it Shakespeare but it would have been fun.

 

they could have tried exorcising jacen

damnit luke

also, I think they tried to say that Vergere brainwashed Jacen but it didn't kick in for six years or something also it happens off page in traitor or something except when she said there is no dark side because telling jacen that made him evil, that's how insidious the programming is

 

I liked Vergere as a student of Palpatine.

I just assumed she was still a decent person who turned against him when she realized the Sith way was without moral value.

But, apparently, that wsn't where they were going with it.

 

maybe if it made any sort of sense in terms of timeline and logistics

I don't think that Vergere needed any sort of insight into Sith training to reach the conclusions she did; after all, that was the intention when it was written, that she was a Jedi Knight that lived with the Yuuzhan Vong for fifty years. From a logistics standpoint, the idea that she was a Sith candidate is something of a nightmare, and I don't feel the idea itself really adds anything apart from the ad hominem poisoning of the well that was intended.

 

Eh, I come from the perspective the Sith should not be automatically feared as the One Ring but studied.

Rejected, perhaps, but a group which Jacen could have learned from.

And shown the flaws of.

 

Yeah, but it's like saying Yoda trained under Plagueis or something. It doesn't add anything to his training of Luke, except to cast aspersions on it.

Which, in this case, was precisely the intent.

 

While that was the intent, I guess I figured I respected vergere more if she had--like Luke and Palpatine.

 

Legacy of the Force honestly just fell apart starting with Sacrifice onwards. They should never have killed Jacen at the end, and most of the actions taken by characters in the second half were just stupid. However at least it still felt like it was in the same universe as what had come before. Legacy of the Force had its moments. It ended badly but we could've recovered.

Fate of the Jedi was just one of the most dreadful things ever created for the Star Wars universe. Introducing planets full of Sith, bizarre retcons, trying to make things over-connected. God it was terrible.

If Jacen and Mara had survivied Legacy of the Force perhaps the post-NJO could've been saved.

 

I loved the Lost Tribe of the Sith short stories.

I'm actually more offended they massacred an entire Star Wars culture after JJM detailed it extensively.

 

As I've said in this thread, the solution should've been to make Caedus into a Lex Luthor type of villain. Instead of Daala, have him stay in charge of the Galactic Alliance. Popularity causes him to stay in charge. Have him handle the Confederation fairly well to the point where the Alliance population starts respecting him. So at the end, there's a peace signed, but Jacen Solo remains Chief of State, as ratified by the actual Senate and not a council of wizards, generals and foreign heads of state. To do this, have him never take up the title of Caedus to begin with. He learns from Lumiya the same way he learned from everyone else. Takes in the teachings and forms up his own world-view, as natural of Jacen Solo. At some point he's shown as smart, and turns on Lumiya after he finds out she's been duping him and he has enough knowledge from her. Make Lumiya his sacrifice, instead of Mara Jade. He keeps some Jedi in-favour through that and Luke starts thinking even if he's authoritarian he's not all that bad.

 

Eh, the only way I could see the story ending is Darth Caedus is revealed to have been pushed into it somehow or a clone with the former ending in Caedus being redeemed and Jacen dealing with his guilt for the rest of his life.

 

That would be interesting if it wasn't Jacen.

I think the idea of a Jedi schism in which neither side is "right" or "wrong" is an interesting one that hasn't ever been properly executed because writers seem to think in Star Wars there's absolute morality, and more to the point that it's somehow woven into its metaphysics, despite the Force lacking an intellect or sapience, thus really confusing the whole issue. Which I suppose Traitor, with its turning that concept on its head, or at least examining the inherent silliness of the paradigm, is controversial for, and the reason why this thread exists. But I'd argue that even in the OT, the good guys aren't purely good: Han and Luke are both partially or totally motivated by self interest which happens to align with "good."

 

The only way that it could've been salvaged was we cut to Jacen waking up in bed next to his wife Tenel Ka and it being revealed it was a dream.

ALL a dream, from Vector Prime on.

Yes, Jacen's Fall was the worst Dark Side turn in SW history. The. Worst. Worse than even Anakin in ROTS, then again pretty much all of LOTF was a horrible rehash of an already-horrible Prequel Trilogy.

 

I can barely even remember Darth Caedus. All I remember is some Vader wannabe, who who did't come across as threatening to me or competent for that matter.