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Does ESB really fit in with the rest of the saga?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by DarthHomer, Feb 2, 2003.

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  1. batvader

    batvader Jedi Youngling star 3

    Dec 23, 2002
    ''ROTJ IMO has more emotion than ESB, but it isn't a dark movie''

    But it has some of the darkest aspects of the films: Luke ''flirting'' with the dark side, and the fact that Emperor has no qualms about discarding his 20+ years faithful 'lieutenant' for a new one.

    Anyway, I agree with most of Homer's points about why TESB stands tall above the rest of the entries, but I pretty much put all the films in a pretty similar 'light' as quality ''popcorn'' stuff. Not much to add myself.
  2. Obi-Ted_Kenobi

    Obi-Ted_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 6, 2003
    All this complaining about how the PT is not as good as the OT. Think about it, do we really want it to be?

    First let me say, I love Star Wars. I love all 5 Star Wars movies so far and I'm sure I will love epIII. TESB is my favorite.

    I personally am glad that TPM and AOTC have been made the way they have been. When all is said and done and epIII is here and all six movies have been released on DVD and I can sit down and watch episodes I thru VI in one sitting and take them in as one big epic story, it will be wonderful, here's why.

    It will be a steady gradual emotionally growing story building up to and climaxing with TESB. Then ROTJ will wrap everything up.

    Think of it as one movie. Would you want the beginning to be the best part and then be left with a good, but not as great, second half and resolution?

    Not me. I like TESB the best, and when I can finally watch the entire Star Wars saga, TESB will be the grand emotionally charged climax to the entire saga and that makes me happy.

    I think George does not have enough supporters, I for one am one. If you think he is so bad, why are you here?

    I think that the way George has been making the PT is a testament to how much we all love TESB and does not attempt to top it. To do that would take away from it.
  3. Tayschrenn

    Tayschrenn Jedi Padawan star 4

    May 24, 2002

    Those are some fantastic thoughts and I couldn't agree with you more. Especially,

    If you look at all the films since then they don't come anywhere near the emotion of ESB. I don't think this was a mistake. There isn't any depth because I don't think Lucas is that kind of a film maker.

    Great post! :)

  4. Django211

    Django211 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 1999
    Obi-Ted I understand what you are saying about Lucas not wanting to outshine the OT with his new films but I really think that is a lousy excuse for making poor films. Everyone knew that the PT was about the falling of Anakin to the dark side. That is the core of what happens. In tone it should have been different than the OT simply by the subject matter. But it seems Lucas lost his nerve, or never wanted it to be the great tragedy that was implied by the OT.

    If one were to watch the films in order would you care for these new characters? I don't think so, at least I wouldn't & haven't. The only reason we like some of these characters is because we know them from the OT. So far Lucas hasn't earned sympathy from a neutral audience (notice I didn't say fans.) The PT exists because he created a series in which curiosity arose about certain characters' past. We wanted to know more about how these characters got to where they are.

    The idea of prequels are not new but they are rare in film. Perhaps the best example is Godfather II, not so coincidentally directed by Lucas' friend & mentor Francis Ford Coppola. In fact the 2 Godfathers I think serve as a template for what Lucas wanted to do. The first film takes place in the middle of the story & then it is followed by what happened before & after. Coppola did it with one film while Lucas wanted to do it with 2 series of films (original intention).

    As for why do we keep coming back I think the answer is that we loved the first few films. I think ROTJ is nowhere near as good as ANH or ESB but I enjoy much more than the prequels. I also see it as the point where Lucas decided to drop the risk taking with these films. I do not think Lucas is a great director but I do think he is a terrific producer/collaborator. If you look at the dialogue from ANH most of the memorable lines came from his friends Gloria Katz & Willard Huyck. Lawrence Kasdan was maily responsible for the great lines in ESB & ROTJ. As much as people hate to give him credit, Gary Kurtz was involved with Lucas' great films. Lucas' collaboration with Spielberg also gave a fun action oriented series. With the new films he doesn't have these people & the films suffer for it.

    He has said that he doesn't particularly like writing or directing yet he chose to do it again, so the question becomes why? I think the reason is because he is much more interested in the technology of filmmaking than in the films themselves. Fortunately for him he can experiment & still make a successful film because of the franchise of Star Wars. I kept watching, & complaining, because he made some good films & I hope that he can do it again. So far he has let me down in almost every area in what I think makes a successful film. Of course the only thing I can't complain about is the great looking cgi, but as a fan of great films I want more than that.
  5. Darth-Stryphe

    Darth-Stryphe Former Mod and City Rep star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Apr 24, 2001
    Obi-Ted I understand what you are saying about Lucas not wanting to outshine the OT with his new films but I really think that is a lousy excuse for making poor films.

    When did Lucas ever say he didn't want to outshine the OT? I really get the impression GL likes the PT more and is trying to make a better series.
  6. The2ndQuest

    The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Jan 27, 2000
    I think that perhaps one primary reason that ESB may seem to stick out to people lies in the shifting of ideas between ESB and ROTJ's production by Lucas.

    After ANH came out, Kurtz and Lucas (perhaps some others liek Kasdan, I'm not sure though) sat down and planned out the basic story of the 9 films, extrapolating from ANH and Lucas's unused ideas to forumlate this layout.

    Thus, ESB was filmed and created with th inteion of being part of this master plan.

    However, fast forward to ROTJ, Lucas decides he wants to change the plan, Kurtz disagrees and leaves. Lucas condenses Episodes 6, 7, 8 & 9 into Return of the Jedi, forging a new master plan that deviates somewhat from the tone and direction of the initial plan that was kept in mind when ESB was filmed.

    So, since the decision to shift gears was made after ESB, that is probably why ESB may feel like the odd-man-out compared to the others. ESB started down one evolutionary path, and with ROTJ they took a detour down another one.

    ANH isn't affected by this since it was designed to act as a stand-alone film, and is essentially the foundation from which any and all later films extrapolated from, regardless of that film's particular path and aim, thus they are all compatible with ANH, even if they aren't all compatible with each other 100%, such as ESB might be seen as.
  7. Obi-Ted_Kenobi

    Obi-Ted_Kenobi Jedi Youngling star 1

    Jan 6, 2003

    First let me say that I respect your response and your opinions. You explain your thoughts well and are not condescending. I appreciate that and I apologize if I seemed hateful about the bashers. If everyone expressed their feelings as honestly and respectfully as you, I would have no problems. I do love coming here and reading the differing viewpoints.

    To respond: I was not making an excuse for TPM and AOTC being poor films. I do not think they are poor films.

    I consider myself a bit of a movie buff. I say movie, because film buff tends to bring images of someone more sophisticated and critical of movies. I am not that type, I am just out to be entertained. I love to go to the movies. I watch a movie and I either like it or I don't (and trust me, there are a lot that I don't.) I am a fan of all kinds of movies including kids and family movies. I think it is a pretty impressive feat to make a movie geared towards kids, but still give the adults something to appreciate. I think that all the Star Wars films have accomplished that. Maybe I am just a simple guy, but I loved all the Star Wars films. Sure TESB is my favorite and probably always will be. And maybe it was the influences of others other than Goerge that made it my favorite. But if it wasn't for George, there would be no Star Wars.

    I took my nephews to see TPM, they were 5 & 8 at the time. They loved it, so did I. I took them to see AOTC, they were 8 & 11, they loved it, so did I. Will they love them as much as I do when they are my age? Doubtful. But that's okay, I and fans like me are a special breed.

    I am rambling now, so I will stop. I just like to laugh and be thrilled and have a great time at a movie. That's what I get out of all of the Star Wars movies so far, again, and again, and again.

  8. Radiohead

    Radiohead Jedi Padawan star 4

    Mar 31, 2002
    I just like to laugh and be thrilled and have a great time at a movie. That's what I get out of all of the Star Wars movies so far, again, and again, and again.

    Well said.

    As for ESB not exactly fitting in with the rest of the trilogy, I think it might have something to do with the ending. It's not a "true" ending in that it resolved the loose ends of the story. I remember one director (I think it might've been David Fincher, but don't quote me on that) who said that initially, he didn't like ESB since it didn't resolve anything at the end. But, like many of us, he later found out about the working sequel, ROTJ.

    Also, ESB is the peak. It's the best Star Wars movie. It's one of the best sequels ever (though I personally don't consider it a "true" sequel since it's a part of a trilogy). Also, ROTJ, while certainly a great movie, didn't quite level up to the narrative sophistication of ESB. The PT movies so far haven't either, even though I love both TPM and AOTC.
  9. Master_Qualis_Rex

    Master_Qualis_Rex Jedi Youngling

    Dec 29, 2002
    it does fit got 2 films (ANH & ROTJ) were its all about the rebels being on the attack blowning up the death star , and in ESB its all about Vader hunting down Luke so its gonna feel a bit different. As for GL directing, i feel he should have left it to someone else, the dialog in the PT is shocking sometimes...i feel sorry for the actors. I watched ESB again a short while ago and remember the bit were luke tries to get his X-Wing out of the Swamp but cant ..Cue Yoda with his speech on the force "judge me by my size do u..well u should not" etc, etc, now thats great dialog, how a bit more of that in the PT.
  10. Django211

    Django211 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Mar 6, 1999
    The2ndQuest I think you're right about the change of direction after ESB, whether intentional or not, the series feels much more kid-friendly. Now I'm not saying that kid films are bad but many times they underestimate the intelligence of the viewer. It is very hard to find good children films that can appeal to adults on a different level. I think ANH had this in tremendous amounts. Starting with ROTJ the films feel oriented toward a younger audience. What bothers me is the fact that I liked the way the series was heading with ESB.

    We knew that the PT was going to be tragic. Anakin was going to betray everything that was close to him in order to become the biggest villain in screen history. So far I see nothing in the PT to indicate why I should care about this betrayal. Now I cared about the back story in the OT but with how it has been portrayed I don't feel anything toward these characters.

    What is missing is the emotion that I think drove ESB. We cared about the characters in the OT. I think that if Lucas wanted he could have made a beautiful series & done something very special but he chose another direction & I think the results are no better than a number of other normal FX driven movies.

    Now Obi-Ted do you think that the new films will resonate with your nephews the way that the OT did with us? Will they be able to return to these films when they get older & still see what they enjoyed about them? For many of us the OT holds up well into adulthood. I believe that the PT will fall into the category of films that one enjoyed as a child but hold little value as an adult.
  11. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Feb 3, 2003
    is ep1&2 really that bad? to where it will be forgotten but ep4,5,6 will be remembered?
    I look at them as One long movie. that will take a long time to make-and has(30 years)ep5 fits nicely, so do the others. Think if you removed an episode- the questions you would ask. I sometimes wish he did like the lord of the rings and made the movies longer by putting ep1&2 together,ep3&4 together and ep5&6 together. if not Ill just do it my self when ep3 comes to vhs.
  12. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Dec 20, 1999
    Darth Stryphe,

    >>>When did Lucas ever say he didn't want to outshine the OT? I really get the impression GL likes the PT more and is trying to make a better series.

    I don't think he's ever said it (to my knowledge, anyway), but the impression I always get is that the prequels are supposed to be building up to the OT as a single 6-part saga; not overshadowing them as a trilogy in it's own right. He's trying to make the OT better with the PT was an introduction, to add resonance to the end of ROTJ, to strengthen the idea that Luke was in danger of turning to the Dark Side and so on...

    How do you think he's trying to overshadow the OT? Yeah, the lightsaber battles are flashier, but I think that hammers home the idea that Luke was a half-trained Jedi at best. Or the bigger battles that illustrate that the rise of the Empire left a trail of destruction in it's wake. And the whole "Chosen One" thing makes very little sense without ROTJ at the end of the story.
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