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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Does Everyone Become A Force Ghost?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by ObiWanKnowsMe, Jun 1, 2017.

  1. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Correct. Merging thread into other Force Ghost Discussion thread. anakinfansince1983
     
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  2. matriculate

    matriculate Jedi Youngling

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2017
    Ok so is obi wan evaporated fighting darth vader and left his cloak behind then shouldn't he be naked as a ghost?
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    No, because it was his outer cloak that he and the other Jedi always removed, that was left behind. Technically, he shouldn't have that on when he appears to Luke.
     
  4. Kenneth Morgan

    Kenneth Morgan Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    May 27, 1999
    Kenobi is, by that point, a spiritual being rather than a physical one. So, if he wanted, he could've appeared to Luke dressed in a Gizmonic jumpsuit. Or, if Disney decides to pull another re-edit, he could appear as his younger self. It's all in the mind, you know.
     
  5. Outsourced

    Outsourced Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 10, 2017
    That's something I can see Lucas trying. Not sure why he didn't.
     
  6. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 10, 2011
    Because it wouldn't make sense. Obi-Wan died as an old man. Unlike Anakin, there were no lost years sacrificed to a dark persona.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    But he didn't destroy the Sith or return balance back to the force when he looked the way he does in ghost form.
     
  8. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    Irrelevant. He didn't look that way in the original version either. In fact, how he appeared originally was a version of Anakin that never existed. As it is now, Anakin appears as he was as a good man.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Was Anakin only a good man off screen?

    Because the ROTS Anakin is shown being insubordinate (and "selfish") when trying to help the troopers on the run in to the Invisible Hand. And then again, he won't let Obi Wan go and risks his and the Chancellor's life to recover his unconscious friend, rather than complete his mission.

    All the while he's keeping his forbidden wife and unborn child a secret but also demanding that he receive greater recognition from the Council.

    The film shows Anakin at his least selfless before turning to the darkside.
     
  10. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Being selfish does not make one evil. Even when making terrible mistakes, he still felt regrets afterwards, if there wasn't any good in him then he wouldn't feel anything about what he did. He tries to do good but in trying to do so, made some awful choices in the way.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    No but the path to merging with the force at will, and retaining consciousness, i.e. being a force ghost, is supposedly achieved through selflessness. That's why we're told that HC's appearance is necessary at the end of the ROTJ, to show the restoration of Anakin's selfless self and not the man that existed after he turned do the darkside (even though the most "selfless" act in the whole saga is arguably, committed by that man underneath the suit and helmet) .

    Luke's intuition that Vader still has good in him is vindicated in ROTJ. And he was referring to Vader, the guy in the suit. So the ghost is not precluded from appearing 7 ft tall in back leather and resin , by the "still good in him" rule.

    Obi Wan and Yoda were considered selfless at the time of their death, so they do not need to revert to an appearance commensurate with the selflessness of their character.
     
  12. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    I think it's more about the Force ghost's image of themselves than anything else. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda hated themselves as much as Vader did.

    "It was added in because it's a way of finishing off the entire series. The idea was that your inner person would go back to where we left it off, when it turned to the dark side -- when you got burned up and everything. But before you got burned up, so when you come back to the good side of the force, it's your former persona that survives, not the Darth Vader persona."

     
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  13. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No. He was a good man before he fell. Hence why there is a fall in the first place.

    Selfish by instinctively (and selflessly) trying to save someone else's life? Perhaps you should check the definition again.

    The film shows Anakin as he was before he fell, before he became Vader. No strawman or cherry picking changes that fact.
     
  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm sorry but isn't Anakin's desire to follow those instincts in relation to the troopers considered selfish and used to support the fact that he doesn't turn suddenly just because of Padme? It's one of the most common definitions of Anakin's selfishness I run into on these boards. (including the taking of a forbidden wife and fathering forbidden children, in secret).
     
  15. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015

    You are correct from a certain point of view. As I stated in the other forum, it is a form of Anakin that up till that point never existed, the form of an aging, wise, and good Jedi Master, and the face of a loving father:

    [​IMG]

    Young Anakin, as represented in the second image, wasn't a good person, since he made numerous choices from an early age (anger, fear, aggression, lies, deceit, murder) that are most definitely on the evil side of the moral spectrum. The healed visage of the elder Anakin represents just that, a form Anakin would have had, if he had made the right choices decades earlier, a mature, elder Jedi Master, equal in stature to Obi-Wan, and Yoda. Unlike the visage of young ROTS Anakin, the elder whole Anakin's visage, which as you state never existed before, has none of the stigmas associated with the evils committed in the form of his younger self, or the more machine than man form he had been in for the last two decades.

    The face in the current version is not the face of a good and wise Jedi Master, it is the face of an evil child murderer:

    [​IMG]
     
  16. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    There is also the loss of his mother, the Clone Wars, him wanting to become more powerful to save the people he loves from death and the distrust he feels from the Jedi council so, not just Padme.
     
  17. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    So are we arguing for ROTS Anakin's goodness and selflessness to support his force ghost appearance still? Or his selfishness and lack of selflessness during this period leading, inexorably, to him choosing to join the Sith? Thus making his appearance as a ghost counter intuitive.
     
  18. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Selflessness is required to become a Force Ghost then the form they choose to appear is the image of themselves they want. No one said RotS Anakin was selfless but it was the last time he considered himself to be a good man despite his flaws, the ghost maintain what he has learned which means now he no longer wants to have more power and accepts death as an inevitability.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    Arguably, the goodest Anakin has ever been. I can't imagine Anakin would look back at that young guy and place his state of mind at that time above the thing that he's just done for his son.
     
  20. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jun 12, 2011
    Maybe because he hated what he has become and no longer wants to be associated with it. Anakin metaphorically "died" in RotS, now he is "reborn" again.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2016
    He told Luke that he already had saved him, as a mature man disfigured by his past. And that Luke was right about him being good inside. Not before. But still.
     
  22. DrDre

    DrDre Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2015
    [​IMG]
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Yeah. That would be weird if the force rewarded his hatred of the image of himself which just destroyed the Emperor and saved his son's life.
     
  24. Darth Downunder

    Darth Downunder Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 5, 2001
    Yet still as a version of Anakin that never existed. With his arm back in place yet with the long hair from RotS & inexplicably, still with his facial scar! You could've said his arm is back bcs his body gets rejuvenated. But that's contradicted by the scar.

    [​IMG]

    Can you pls explain the scar? Why is ghost Anakin's "body" showing damage done by some injuries in life but not others?

    Also, if ghost HC-Anakin can appear this way, as a version of himself "that never existed", what was wrong with older Anakin appearing as his rejuvenated self?
     
  25. Alexrd

    Alexrd Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 7, 2009
    No. What does one thing have to do with the other?

    I answer for my statements, not for other people's.

    A made up form with made up attributes.

    It's Anakin as he once was before he fell, as opposed to a complete stranger. Your focus on irrelevant minutae doesn't detract from the thematic and visual intent of the character's representation. Kids get it. It's Anakin, the Jedi he once was: he came back.