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Lit Does loyalty justify serving an evil regime?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by SpecForce Trooper, Jun 17, 2017.

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Is it justified?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    10.0%
  2. No

    54 vote(s)
    90.0%
  1. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Legacy is one of the *better* Star Wars stories. Naturally it poses interesting moral questions, namely, is loyalty to an evil regime justified?
    In the comic the Empire has become a force for good. However, the Sith stage a coup and transform the Empire into a genocidal machine of death (once again). So is it justified for an Imperial to continue to serve under the Sith? By serving are they supporting genocide? Should they defect or remain loyal? What do you think?
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Generally, the default position by the authors seems to be that it doesn't - it makes the character more sympathetic, but they're still portrayed as closer to "anti-villain" than "hero on the other side".
     
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Your example isn't as simple as the question you pose in the thread title.

    For instance, one might posit that loyalty would dictate serving the hereditary emperor instead of an illegitimate usurper.

    So we never really reach the question posed.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  4. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Personally, I don't think it justifies it. Loyalty should not be merely to a name or organization, but also to the ideology or beliefs said group represents, and you could argue that those who continue to serve are not loyal to the same group they originally supported.

    Unless a certain person thinks they can change the regime by staying, loyalty is not justified.
     
    SpecForce Trooper likes this.
  5. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    The question really pertained to the second example. But anyone serving Krayt out of loyalty would be loyal to the Empire and not the Emperor.
     
  6. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    A very loaded question or maybe I just feel that way because I'm from Austria. The answer is a firm NO.
     
  7. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    If you are in any kind of military

    You (one) have to answer some simple questions.

    Did you get drafted (no choice) by dejure government in which you live in time of war (before war started).
    Did you enlist of your free will?
    Did you enlist because of parents were in the same army (herediatary)

    If you answered yes to any of the questions above. Then you should stay in the army no matter what happens. Any AWOL or defection deserves execution. NO exceptions.

    The only thing I can think of is if you were drafted in (no choice) time of war by the invader, then you should defect to your own army asap.

    TL DR Once in a military, stay in the same military. Don't believe anyone that your regime is evil or whatever. It's enemy propaganda.
     
  8. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    You made some really interesting points. If only the issue were black and white, it'd make for easier responses. :p
     
  9. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    why do the armed forces exist?
    1. offend
    2. defend
    Is the purpose of it to let military personnel grow fat and lazy and eat and sleep?
    Even in time of peace awol is/should not be allowed.
    Discipline must be preserved.
    Morality (OMG my regime is evil) is a sad excuse to get out of service.

    As far as I think it's okay and should to be loyal to the Empire (or any de jure government) instead of one person.
    Arny personnel should be loyal to the ideal and the organization instead of the head of the organization. e.g. The Emperor surrenders. But the Imperial idea lives on, as it should.

    Edit: In the case of Krayt and co taking over. Think, is it the same Empire?
    It may call itself the Empire.
    Look, the French Kingdom ruled by the Capetians vs the modern French republic. They are botgh France. Is it the same?
     
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  10. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    You're basically saying one should be a cog in the machine, a thoughtless drone. What if you realize you made a mistake and the army you joined is rotten through and through?
     
  11. Ewoklord

    Ewoklord Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Mm...
    ...
    Hmm...

    Oookay.
     
    Darth_Pevra likes this.
  12. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    I defently think that being loyal to an obviously evil nation/army is wrong and one should have the responsibilty to desert said army in that case, if the opportunity presents itself.
    Serving in an army whose cruelities you have seen yourself or maybe even took part in is almost as wrong as ordering said crimes and justifing it with loyality is just pathetic.
    So no it doesn´t jusitfy anything
     
  13. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Loyalty within a military group cannot be understated, and sometimes I think there's a need to accept things that one might not be entirely comfortable for -- a sacrifice for the unit as a whole, in others words -- but there's also importance in removing yourself from a grossly irreparable situation.

    It's a hard decision to make.
     
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  14. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    FYI the royal French army swore their loyalty to the king, not to France, which was merely the name of the realm the king ruled. The French republican army swears loyalty to the Republic, not to France (which is a name for the metropolitan departments).

    This notion of "morality as an excuse" is interesting since militaries since the start of civilized have had codes of civilized conduct. Genocide in particular is a war crime; the gravest.

    This absurd notion that all that matters is military discipline is precisely the sort of thing one hears from armchair civilian war hawks who wouldn't know the first thing about militaries.

    Militaries take their oaths seriously. Those simply following along instead of making hard decisions are the ones making excuses.

    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  15. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Darth Pevra:

    a cog in a machine does not necessarily make you a thoughtless drone.

    ewokland

    Quoting my words half way does nothing for your argument

    Anedon and Anakin Skywalker.

    Again, why did one join the so called "evil" army in the first place? Did you join because one were starving and the army gives one food? Or did one join because one actually believed in those "evil" ideas?
    If the former, maybe you should have thought things over before joining. If the latter, you belong in that army.

    Okay.

    TL: DR

    Before joining an army. Think over its mission. Once you joined though, stay till the bitter end. Most importrantly. make sure you don't lose.
     
  16. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    The army was not "evil" in the first place. I think that's the whole point here.
     
    SpecForce Trooper likes this.
  17. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Yes the Imperials we're discussing are the ones who joined under Fel. Should they continue to serve under Krayt?
     
    Anakin.Skywalker likes this.
  18. Anakin.Skywalker

    Anakin.Skywalker Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 11, 2016
    Not if it's so bad they can't support it morally. The only exception would be, in my opinion, if they felt they could rise in power enough to change it.
     
  19. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Grandadmiral Jello.

    You are right about France. My point is both are France, but they are definitely not the same thing.

    You are also right about Genocide.

    You are also right about that I am an armchair civilian. However, I don't believe for a second I am a war hawk. As for I don't know about militaries, sure, as I said, I am just a civilian. But dang it,militiaries are not just for show.

    To answer SpecForce Trooper's question

    Theoretically since they are not the same thing, no they should not continue to serve.

    However, I am afraid the army personnel may not have a choice. Because krayt may hunt them down. It's a bad situation.

    The ones still serving should be:
    starving personnel that if they quit the army they don't have food.
    or
    people who actually believes Krayt's ideas are the greatest.
     
  20. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    Well there are plenty of reasons why someone would find him or herself in such a situation.
    -Consiption/Pressed into service
    -You´ve been in the army while it still had just ideals but then the goverment behind it changed
    -You didn´t knew about the actroicties as your propaganda ommits them
    -You belived in the ideals but when you get to the front you see how far your goverment is willing to go for them
    -It might even be that someone at first thinks the war crimes to be nessary or just but later realizes how horrible they acutally are that´s still better than staying to the end

    So if your army is comitting warcrimes you should stay, but desert when they are loosing?
     
  21. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    Andedon

    No, I am not saying you should shoot civilians.
    No sane army officer would order it in the first place.

    as I said, if the government changes then the army for that government would actually cease t o exist. They lost and became the army of a collaborationist government. Or they just (at least should) be disbanded.

    See grand army of Napoleon.
     
  22. Darth Zack

    Darth Zack Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    I think this sort of rhetoric stopped being justifiable after Nuremburg.
     
  23. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    one last time

    If you joined an army/navy/air force willingly then you cannot make excuses to quit before your time is up.
    if you were drafted/pressed by your own government in a desperate military situation, then you cannot make excuses to quit.
    if you were drafted/pressed by the enemy, quit away.

    and no, if you joined any kind of military, you are not supposed to shoot civilians.
     
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  24. Anedon

    Anedon Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 11, 2016
    That´s just flat out wrong. Military recuitment allways includes lies and half truths.
    Admitting a mistake and trying to make up for it is better than going through with it.

    So you say that a goverment has the right to pull civilians into the military and use them as canon fodder?
     
  25. DARTH_MU

    DARTH_MU Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 9, 2005
    If your country were invaded and the only thing standing between the enemy conquering your land and make you his slave, then yes. military should be "pull civilians into the military and use them for their ambition to survive. It's not a matter of canon fodder. It's a matter of you wanting to be your own country men or become some kind of countryless refugee.