Lit Does loyalty justify serving an evil regime?

......you have a strange definition of prospered.

Also in general, about democracy not working in Star Wars - the Republic had at the very least a thousand years of peace and prosperity. A thousand years - remember all that has happened in the last thousand years . In contrast, the Empire barely lasted twenty years, and those years were full of strife and suffering.

And at most - 25,000 years, 5 times longer than human history from the very earliest of Mesopotamian cuneiforms to today, the vast majority of which was at peace. Even most of the wars that broke that peace were short, and the various empires the Republic went up against were short lived in comparison.

Maybe it wasn't a mary suetopia forever without fail or fault, but it is certainly a remarkable success by any standards - or at least I feel if one compares it to any other government in the SW universe and use the same standards, the Republic comes out ahead -, especially considering the difficulties of governing such a large and diverse population.

As for the Old-Old Republic being more similar to the Empire than the New-Old Republic....I really have to disagree. Other than having a military, things seem to be much the same. If anything, the senate seems to me to be a bit more active in Old Republic media, with more references to elections and the like.
Also, despite how a recent novel acted, one can have a centralized government without being a dictatorship.

Technically, I believe in Legends the Jedi actually were a branch of the Republic Judiciary Department.

 

Those thousand years were awful. Look how the Republic functioned in TPM. Just imagine what would've happened if the Vong appeared at that time.

 

actually, nothing brings a people together like a war does.

I'm sure if vong attacked during TPM, there would have been less GFFA casualties.

 

1) TPM is rather explicitly a low point, a sign of how far it had fallen from its glory days.

2) Even then it is far from awful. Most of the galaxy is at peace, there are honest senators as well as crooked, and the plight of Naboo does bring a lot of sympathy in the senate. Plus, for as much as the movie frames it as awful and corrupt, in my opinion "Let's find out what is going on rather than rushing in guns ablazing" is hardly a horribly unreasonable response.

3) As for the Vong - no worse than the Empire I imagine. Truth be told, if it wasn't for the authors' need to produce drama by making good guy authorities antagonistic, I think the Republic probably would unite against a clear outside foe, and between the jedi, the various militias, and the ability to buy massive droid armies from the megacorps, I think the Old Republic could have handled that pretty well.
After all, the Vong were spying on the Galaxy for thousands of years. They only chose to strike after Palpatine's wars left the Galaxy ravaged and exhausted.

 

War certainly brought the Japanese-American (and -Canadian) community together, in camps.

War also changes your definition of "people" and "my people" in tragic ways.

Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk

 

yes, ethnic Japanese were together in US and Canada.

also, they came together to attack East Asia and had designs on the US.

why would war change your definition of "my people"?

 

Because "my people" are my fellow citizens who deserve all the rights I do, unless maybe they look like people we're fighting. In which case, they're not "my people," they're "other" and we don't have to be nice to them.

That's why Rebels showed us a Stormtrooper harassing an alien Imperial citizen. It's because his society said that alien isn't really "his people."

Edit: and the internment camps were morally reprehensible, just making sure that's out there.

Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk

 

The internment camps in WW2 kind of say otherwise.

The statement of who is "an American" has constantly shifted and this is true for almost every country or ideology in the world. The fact wars are frequently between people within a country or body of life is also a point. To keep it Star Wars, the Empire vs. Rebellion didn't bring people together because it forced people to choose a side.

 

well history really.

when one power of the world wars attack another one, are the people being attacked not together if they want to survive?

 

Well, if the dictator in question is Vetinari, that kind of explains it:



Although, it's a great shame Terry Pratchett died, as we'll never know what happens when Ankh-Morpork starts becoming acquainted with democratic concepts as it already has the Press and technological development, so wanting a freer system would likely follow. Equally, time did pass in Discworld - what happens when Vetinari dies?

 

That's...not how World War 1 and 2 went. World War 1 was all about shifting alliances, revolts, treaty obligations, and destruction of once close bonds. For example, let's go to just one section with Lawrence of Arabia's story and the Middle East as a whole. World War 1 destroyed the Ottoman Empire as the various peoples in its territories knew war was an excellent opportunity to split apart. They were happier, healthier, and more free apart than together.

Or for a more pertinent example, in a war you don't automatically have "fight or die" as your options. Very often its, "Fight, Die, Side with the enemy, or fight against both sides." WW2 had collaborators, neighbors spying on neighbors, and resistance groups which loathed one another.

 

Vader would not have been so absent minded as Palpatine. He would have sought to enact anti slavery policies, he would have sought various economic integration projects, crushing the Hutts, and so on.

Honestly I can see Vader being a popular and successful emperor.

Former Jedi who saw the error of his ways and insert cover story about killing Palpatine the public will believe(maybe Yoda?) and then leading the galaxy into a golden age.

 

Even before the sith the republic had several wars-the multiple Alsakan conflicts, the first great schism, the unification wars that proceeded the republic's formation, the Pius Dea and so on.

But we are talking about a scale of history that RL has not ever equalled. Basically what if there was a global civilization from ten Pleistocene to the present?

 

True.

Still, my point is that if such long periods of peace and prosperity count as "not working", what does count as working?

I also feel there is something of a double standard here - if a democracy is not utterly perfect it is a failure that should be destroyed, but if a dictatorship has even one happy, not-on-fire civilian it is counted a success. Just...how it feels to me sometimes.

 

working means no revisionism and survive.

edit: I don't condone autocracy unless it follows marxist principles.

 

That's a silly attitude. Then no government works.

 

If you are an honest Marxist than you eventually want to transcend "democracy" all together.

 

yes.
the current democracy uses capitalism though.

it's interesting in star wars there is obviously money changing hands and slavery, yet the economic system is never made clear. Capitalism? Planned economy by the Empire or NR?

 

Book report Lost Stars chapter 19.

Die Kendy Die.

Edit:

Mistakes have been made. Must find real embezzler.

 

It seems to be mainly capitalist. The Empire will nationalize certain things when it's in their interest to do so (i.e., they buy out a mine when they need its resources)



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Speaking of Marxism I find it interesting given the blatant aristocratic and oligarchic nature of galactic society there has never been a comparable movement IU. Not even a populist movement of any kind.

 

I'm looking forward to your thoughts at the end.

No joke.

 

Are you feeling okay, Jello?

 

Just finished chapter 25

Thoughts

Nash -- reading these boards, I thought he was supposed to be a monster and probably r'd Ciena, but no. He was actually a good imperial... will he change in chapter 26? Unlikely

Ciena -- She wasn't thinking traight. And Charlemagne, she did not go into battle wishing her imperial comrades to die, I don't know where you go that, again, unless it's in chapter 26.

Are we really sure her mother did not embezzle? Unreliable narrator. Berisse got it right, death star 2 was needed. Okay so your leader is ugly, so that means you automatically lable him evil?

Thane -- Generally useless.

message to all: you don't stop serving just because you don't like some policies/order made. otherwise You might as well surrender the moment a conflict start.

However, Thane got one thing right, the Empire doesn't really deserve Ciena, she is too pure. This does not mean Ciena should just give up. She is just shell shocked. Just because of some rotten apple doesn't mean the whole orchard is bad. One final thing, Thane deserves to be in the old Legend EU New Republic. this new NR of disneys doesn't deserve Thane.