Lit Does loyalty justify serving an evil regime?

...you do know Martin Luther was before that right?

We're talking challenges to centralised authority that empowered the people.

I mean, I can draw a diagram but I feel at that point we've already lost the point.

 

There were still autocrats in Europe after 1518. Stable long lasting autocracies.

Luther condemned the german peasants' rebellion and Calvin set up a theocratic state in Geneva.

 

This thread has gone bizarrely off topic

 

I know. It was all about Felpire, then the Imperial Remnant, then Lost Stars, then History of Autocracy in various countries. Now we are at theology.

 

Eh, it seemed it was talking about the loyalty of soldiers to evil regime like the LOATHSOME RESISTANCE.

But yes, I'm okay with just talking about the Felpire if people want. I really support the troopers who sided with Krayt.

 

none of them were the true Empire though.

Felpire is just called the Empire, but really under the Jedi scum Jaina Solo and her descendants

The Sith Empire is opportunist. They are not the Emperor's descendants.

Dang it I'm seriously joining the volunteer spec ops to break out Captain Ree, who's with me?

 

If it was a comedy of errors, I would see it like this.

* Thane is certain Ciena will roll on her fellow Imperials, only for all of them to roll on her with lies while Ciena remains silent.
* The Republic puts her on trial for war crimes.
* Windrider hears about her trial and sends INFERNO SQUAD to rescue her!
* She is rescued against her will and Thane captured!

The story writes itself.



I will say I'm very happy this is a red-letter day. Darth_Mu likes something in canon!

 

Call me Mu (pronounced Miu)

 

I'll join any Imperial SpecOps task force. Gamma 24 reporting for duty!

Also the Empire of Legacy was formed from the remnants of the original Empire and it was helmed by loyalists.

 

I'm entirely okay calling it the Second Empire and I believe Daala should be listed as its founder and Empress.

 

The Felpire has its origins in the imperial remnant which has its origins in Kaine's pentastar alignment which was one the empire's successor states.

So it isn't a direct continuation of Palpatine's empire but it is still the empire.

 

As much as I love Grand Moff Kane, I believe the Pentastar Alignment was reabsorbed by the Imperial Ruling Council/Reborn Emperor. It existed only until it became part of the Dark Empire.

 

Yeah I like 'New' or 'Second'. What a shame it took so long for the Emperor/Empress title to return.

 

I'm inclined to believe the empire "died" with Carnor Jax and the Ruling Council after the Republic eliminated it. However, the Moffs include individuals appointed by Palpatine. There is a continuity of government of the Moffs appointed by, presumably, Palpatine during Operation: Shadow Hand when he re-absorbed the Imperial Remnant and warlords. While Admiral Daala seized control over the Imperial Military, those Moffs were still all appointees by Palpatine as its clear Disra was not appointed by Daala or Pellaeon but actually a holder of his position since before Palpatine.

It's also possible if there were any surviving members of the Regency Council, as we know Sarcev Quest lasted a very long time, that they at least rubber stamped the Empire.

The lack of a Council, though, implies to me Pellaeon had no use for the Imperial Court and relied on the Moffs directly for support. Equivalent to bypassing Congress for State Support.

 

Yes the Empire did die during Crimson Empire. I'm pretty sure there was no Ruling Council. The Moff Council seems to have completely replaced them.

 

Given Disra was a member of the Mofference, doesn't this technically mean they won the Imperial Civil War?

 

According to Legends continuity the empire was broken as an entity by 12 ABY-Palleaon and Daala just disposed of the grave diggers(the warlords).

Palleaon apparently took what remained of the empire and shepherded a broken shadow back to glory.

 

curiously no one in the old Legend EU claimed Emperorship post Pellaeon. (Pellaeon himself didn't even proclaim Emperorship).

It doesn't look like the new disney EU have anyone claiming Emperorship either.

 

Daala's bodyguards (on her behalf) created a hologram of Palpatine and proclaimed the hologram Emperor (trying to convince people it was the real thing), at least.

 

Well Jagged Fel took the title of Emperor at some point or another(more than likely after 60 ABY).

But the empire was a different creature at that point.

 

Agreed.

If nothing else, it is worth keeping in mind that in a lot of old societies, the king may theoretically have unlimited power, but in practice actually have quite limited.* Frankly, many peasants throughout history did not know or care who their sovereign was. In contrast, modern technology and bureaucratic techniques allow modern dictators to negatively effect a larger percent of the population.

*In particular, China has a reputation for being autocratic, but the more I study it the more I am impressed by its checks and balances and the importance of popular support and participation in its government. I mean, perhaps not as a democracy per say - though a few Chinese overseas communities founded democratic governments even before the American Revolution - but it was a far cry from the Emperor just doing whatever he wanted. In fact, in later dynasties the emperor was so controlled by protocol and the various power groups (the civil service, the eunuchs, the military etc) that..well, it seemed like a pretty terrible job.

 

Please keep in mind different dynasties of China have different situations with regards to the son of Heaven. You can't say oh China's Emperors were such and such without telling us which dynasty you re talking about.

 

Chinese history is a specialty of mine, so I am well aware. If you really want to get into, it varied a lot depending on the individual emperors and their circumstances. Still, since this is a forum is a Star Wars one instead of a history one, and this is a casual online debate, I thought it might be best to go with the quick and simple version.