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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit Does loyalty justify serving an evil regime?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by SpecForce Trooper, Jun 17, 2017.

?

Is it justified?

  1. Yes

    6 vote(s)
    9.7%
  2. No

    56 vote(s)
    90.3%
  1. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    The Okd Republic was a core world's centered oligarchy in which mega corporations were given free reign to play with whole sectors of space, a bunch of warrior monks held way too much sway in the ears of the chancellors and was apparently and simply was incapable of dealing with the grievances of a galactic society.

    Not to mention before the Ruusan reformation the republic spent about 4000 years of its existence in near continuous warfare. Prior to that in millennia past it fought a series of wars against itself-Alsakan and Coruscant, there was the Pius Dea and probably innumerable local conflicts.

    Though it must be given credit-the republic lasted 25,000 years. Though it is arguable whether the state survived unbroken. To use a RL example a lot of historians say the Byzantine empire died in 1204. A successor state retook Constantinople from the Latins nearly 60 years later but the empire wa broken into three. Was the republic of the pius dea era the same institution as it was in the post Ruusan era?
     
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  2. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    The Empire of Legacy was technically a different institution as the Empire of Palpatine. I wouldn't be surprised if the Pius Dea situation was similar.
     
  3. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    Even in the Sith wars(5000-1000 BBY) the republic was on its last legs and close to total destruction more than once.
     
  4. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    I don't think it's accurate to characterize the Second Empire as an absolute monarchy. It's actually somewhat feudal, in the sense that Imperial forces in each sector seem to owe their allegiance to their local moff, and then the moffs to the Emperor in turn. Roan Fel's direct appeal to the allegiance of the troops at Bastion seems to have been radical. The mofference has their own independent power base, and one of the reasons they began to get restive under the Sith is that the Sith did not respect this relationship. The mofference viewed the Imperial throne as their creation, a willing concession of power on their part.

    So also different from feudalism historically in that they did not actually owe their power base to the throne, but rather, the other way around.
     
  5. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    The Second Empire isn't an absolute monarchy because the Emperor is a figurehead. The true power belong to those who SHOULD rule the Empire in the Grand Moffs.

    #Calixte4Empress
     
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  6. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Indeed it seems in the days of Palleaon and Caedus the moffs ran the show day to day.
     
  7. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    The Old Republic committed much of the same as the Empire. There were always a few bad eggs, the Empire had Tarkin and the Republic.. well, you only need play SWTOR to see them. The Ruusan-era Republic was probably the worst government to exist on a moral level in Star Wars though, probably on the level of the CIS. While the OR denounced uncivilized practices like slavery and the Empire had honest people that wanted to enforce order during the Clone Wars, the Ruusan Republic was institutionalized corruption and complacency. And then the CIS looked at the Ruusan Republic and went 'You know, why should we megacorps ONLY be allowed to invade other planets as we like and be stopped only by like 2 guys and the local security system? We should just outright rule the Galaxy and have all the free markets and slaves we want instead'.
     
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  8. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The Ruusan era republic really rode on inertia and the fact the sith weren't banging down the gates every other decade.
     
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  9. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    The worst part of Ruusan is that without a rival they could've formed a decent democratic state that also had a strong military to defend it and tackled problems like galactic crime and slavery, but nope. Let's just let megacorps and Jedi have it all, both very bad substitutes for an actual galactic authority.
     
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  10. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    The Republic had been heavily militarized and without a threat why keep a large standing army and navy?
     
  11. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Because it would be insane to dissolve your own military.
    EDIT: The Sith never stay dead. Why would the Republic's leaders assume the threat was gone for good? Also internal threats and extragalactic threats were still on the table.
     
  12. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    We have the benefit of being readers out of universe looking in, from an in universe perspective the sith were destroyed in a final series of epic battles and treachery within their own ranks.

    Also what extragalactic threats? The Vong were unknown to the galaxy at large-as they were still traversing the void. The Hutts they weren't a military threat sure they spread drugs, crime, and corruption but that doesn't effect really change the status quo and if I as a senator I can make money on the side from death sticks and slavery why not do business with the Hutts?

    The Unknown regions aren't called the unknown regions for nothing, the Chiss remained largely unknown and other threats are well unknown.

    As for internal threats-so say a world or whole system has an occasional insurrection or civil war-just send the Jedi and Judicial forces to patch it up their cheaper and ideally can get in get settlements and get out. And no one local conflagration is really going to threaten galactic society as a whole.

    As a further speculation on the subject of local conflicts I seriously suspect the bulk of fighting in the Legends Clone Wars was local civil wars and insurgencies with the CIS and Republic supporting different sides while main strategic theatres is where the grand army of the republic and droid armies engaged in only.
     
  13. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 26, 2013
    Because you don't just dissolve your entire military. Its stupid. Downscale it so it exists to keep security, yeah, but WHY would you want megacorps to do as they please with no Republic Navy to stop them? Also like I said, with no existing threat, they could've used that military to tackle issues they pretended to be against, like slavery in the Outer Rim. They didn't because the Republic federal government ended up in the pockets of megacorps and crime lords not long after the Ruusan Reformation. Just think about this for a moment. A bunch of US Marshals and a British royal are stuck in a Cartel-ran part of Mexico. Do you really think the US (or any other government, just using the US as an example) wouldn't send in the Marines ASAP? Let's not forget the active and obvious Hutt crime lord on Coruscant itself, Ziro. And get this, he wasn't arrested for his illicit business, he was arrested for rivaling another crime lord.
     
  14. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Those megacorps didn't want a strong state as a check on their power a republic that only downsized its armed forces would still serve as a check on their power. I think long term those megacorps really just wanted to rule the whole galaxy as they ruled the corporate sector unhindered, unthreatened, and able to exploit trillions as they pleased.

    But all in all the post Ruusan republic was a corrupt weak shadow of its glory and the Jedi ironically as the sith said were guardians of its stagnation and decline.
     
  15. Havoc123

    Havoc123 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Yeah that's what I mean. The Ruusan Republic was a state way worse than the Empire, because the Empire at least in ideals tried to fix problems even if in practice they didn't, the Ruusan Republic was all corruption left going on unchecked. And the Jedi were the worst in that they supported and agreed to the surrender of the Republic Armed Forces and the tolerance for megacorps and crime syndicates to explode in influence and gain a lot of power. Just compare the Ruusan Republic to the actual Old Republic, sure it had corruption and crime lords, but it was at a much lower scale than what went on in the pre-Sheev Republic. Ironically it was this very corruption going on unchecked that allowed Darth Plagueis to accumulate his powerbase. Things like that make you think on whether Tarsus Valorum wasn't an agent of Bane's.
     
  16. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 8, 2016
    Valorum was simply a scion of an ancient human core dynasty and he got where he was as a result of that. I find it interesting that the Sith while creating and influencing anti-republic dissent kept anti-republic terrorist organizations and movements from getting too strong too early-almost as if they knew the whole system needed some time to fully rot and they didn't want to set off some sort of movement they no longer controlled-like a mass populist uprising against the core world's.

    In the end the post Ruusan republic was a result of I think most anything of tiredness and a lack of confidence. The republic has been at war for a thousand years straight and prior to that as had three thousand years of war. Not only that but it's social capital had been exhausted-most of the Galaxy had been colonized or at least charted, there were no more big enemies to fight and no green grass beyond the next hill even say in the worst days of the Pius Dea or early Alsakan war galactic civilization believed and dreamed of something better, that the hyperdrive and this vast Galaxy had so many possibilities. By Ruusan you have a sort of civilizational tiredness and brokenness. A sense that there's nothing really left to believe in, that problems and internal divisions are so big and complex they can never be resolved effectively and that things aren't ever going to be as good as they were.

    Once a civilization starts believing it's at the end of its ride it probably is. The republic as Lucas put it was old and tired and worn out. And so it died. The Sith just were smart to let it linger on life support and happy to spread disease slowly letting age and atrophy do the rest.
     
  17. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    This is hogwash. The Ruusan Republic was corrupt toward the end of its life but it was a time of peace and prosperity for the majority of the galaxy. One of the big things about the Prequels is as bad as it was to have the Trade Federation running wild, it was not even remotely as bad as the Empire. The Jedi were able to keep the peace and if not for Palpatine, they would have forced the Federation to back down.

    Also, the Crime Lords under the Empire were much much more powerful than under the Ruusan Republic.

    The Ruusan Republic was an age of prosperity and peace while the Empire was one of war and oppression.
     
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  18. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jun 19, 2016
    Do you think the Empire would've allowed Naboo to happen?
     
  19. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Who cares? The Empire allowed itself to be destroyed after about twenty years of existence, it couldn't protect itself or Naboo. Couldn't even protect its own Emperor.

    Oh, and the Empire killed Queen Apailana in 18 BBY.
     
  20. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    If a leader is harboring enemies of the state, that leader needs to go. Look at Afghanistan.
     
  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Four answers:

    1. Palpatine DID let it happen because it was his design and he IS the Empire.

    2. You're assuming the Empire has a vested interest in maintaining law and order when the actual history of its actions are the opposite. You've mentioned you've got no interest in the canon Empire but the Expanded Universe Empire had a large history of false flag operations designed to create crises so the Empire could intervene inside them.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Destabilization

    There was that time they created a plague which killed a 10th of a planetary population so they could give the cure for the populace. The Krytos Trap. Blaming the Sand People for murdering Jawas and Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru. The Empire LOVES it when there's conflict between it's member states and its operatives. That allows them to bring the hammer down on both.

    3. The Expanded Universe Empire, even if you ignore The Force Unleashed, did have Palpatine use the Galactic Civil War as an excuse to dissolve the Senate and grow his power. Fascist governments need enemies.

    This is why the First Order is superior. It actually believes in law and order. :) It destroyed the evil of Hosnian Prime and cleansed the galaxy so it could be rebuilt.

    4. The Naboo Crisis actually wasn't that bad as we saw the Jedi resolve it in like, what three weeks? Yes, they had the help of Queen Amidala but as "Jedi missions" go, that's actually not that bad of a track record.
     
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  22. Darth_Duck

    Darth_Duck Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2000
    No, because it's Poppa Palpatine's homeworld. They allowed and participated in a lot of things worse than Naboo.

    Sent from my SM-G386W using Tapatalk
     
  23. SpecForce Trooper

    SpecForce Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 19, 2016
    I highly doubt the Empire would tolerate external threats.
     
  24. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Like, say, a Confederacy of some sort?
     
  25. Darth Invictus

    Darth Invictus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Aug 8, 2016
    They wouldn't have dithered as the Vong pressed to the core that's for sure.