Lit Does loyalty justify serving an evil regime?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by SpecForce Trooper, Jun 17, 2017.

?

Is it justified?

Yes 6 vote(s) 10.0%
No 54 vote(s) 90.0%
  1. SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2016
    star 4
    Yeah I don't think it makes sense either. Just trying to explain it. One other thing: If you look at the map, all of the Empire's territory prior to the Moff's conquests remained loyal to the Emperor. While all of the conquered territory became Krayt's. It's as if most of the original Imperials stayed loyal and the provincials bowed to Krayt; They probably didn't care.
    JediBatman likes this.
  2. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    It seems there is exists a lot of tradition and unwritten custom has been built up around the imperial throne by the time of legacy. The duties of the imperial knights support this. I imagine the ideology of "the throne is more important than the man who sits on it" served as a buffer and holding block for the Fels-even if you don't like the Fels you still serve the throne on which they sit. Self serving but something Jag would appreciate from a political standpoint.

    Also the Moffs authority is not absolute-Fel seems to retain control of the imperial Knights and his the face of the empire. Though interestingly he wasn't in favor of the war with the GA-the moffs having pressured him into it. This means-either he went along with it as Krayt said as a "poltical necessity" to avoid a confrontation with the Moffs or because he doesn't hold absolute power over the business of the empire.

    The Moffs complained even that Fel played them off one another apparently they didn't view themselves as subservient to him and yet neither his superiors.
  3. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    It seem to me like the legacy writers went the Japan ww2 route and 360 after roan fel regained power.
  4. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    To narrow the purpose of this thread, I think we should have one of the mods ( @GrandAdmiralJello ?) rename it, "Is serving the Empire/First Order/Sith ever justified?" It would keep things a bit more Star Wars and give things a bit more focus as we wouldn't be asking if LOYALTY is the only good reason to do it but whether you can justify serving groups that are cartoonishly evil in-canon.
    Lord knows we have plenty of "honorable" Imperials but who have often aided and abetted evil in their actions. Among the non-defectors there's Kir Kanos, Jahan Cross, Ciena Re, Pellaeon, Soontir Fel (who yo-yoed), and Rae Sloane.

    Note: This will be an issue in Battlefront 2.

    http://www.glixel.com/interviews/qa-star-wars-battlefront-2-story-with-ea-and-lucasfilm-w477360

    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 18, 2017
  5. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    You mean factions in the cabinet? Because your right on the money. The imperials seem to be divided(Moffs)-Imperial mission moffs, hard power moffs, reconciliation moffs. And I want to rule moffs(Morlish Veed).
  6. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Fel might have just been able to seize that territory as Bastion was taken over by Emperor Fel but, beforehand, he and his followers were on the run ala Daenerys and her brother. He's only a monarch in exile until he manages to seize the former Imperial capital and rally former troops. We also have "Noob" to describe the difference between the soldiers loyal to Emperor Fel (disgusting traitors) and the Imperial loyalists who chose to fight with the Sith.

    :)
  7. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    If you are in a military and follow orders, 90 percent of the time you are doing something right.
    You don't have to understand, just obey.
  8. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 2
    bull****. Nuremberg.
  9. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    ,
    Last edited by DARTH_MU, Jun 18, 2017
  10. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    War crimes are things which soldiers are established as having a duty to disobey in modern times for this reason. However, if you're ordered to blow up a building, you're supposed to be of the mind that there's soldiers in there rather than a bunch of orphans.

    Hesitation can get you and your people killed.

    That's obviously not the case in executing Uncle Owen, Aunt Beru and other people. Oddly, in Finn's case, his moment of "horror" is weird because the village on Jakku is shooting back.
  11. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure various charges can be brought to the loser by the winner post conflict.

    I'm not condoning mass killing of civilians.

    I'm not condoning having a death star destroying planets (real life nuking cities)

    I am saying discipline must be maintained Without it how can you win against any enemy who are technologically superior than your own? In any war you might as well surrender after the first shot because dang it, if you kill that guy aiming that gun at you, won't anyone think of his children?!
  12. Darth Invictus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2016
    star 4
    I doubt many people here have actually served in the armed forces. But as it is obedience is demanded for one that's what signing up demands. Second for cohesion and third that's life. When it comes to international law and war crimes I understand they have lectures on that sort of thing in the USAAF every other month.
  13. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    One of the subjects I discussed with Michael Suttkus for researching A CERTAIN BOOK was that we discussed the main character and the issue of war crimes. In the Archduchy of Crius, they don't recognize civilians as individuals who are off-limits to target if they're performing acts which are supporting of enemy infrastructure or are nearby existing targets. This is contrast to the more "civilized" Commonwealth.

    Canderous Order did something similar when he talked about how the Mandalorians were furious at the Republic for trying to "hide' behind civilian populations while storing military hardware and machinery, which they felt warranted the Mandalorians blowing up both.

    Which is something that real life dictators have done to try to avoid the United States just bombing them. Also, civilian infrastructure was fair game in WW2.

    I'm currently trying to work on what crimes to charge Ciena Ree.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 18, 2017
  14. comradepitrovsky Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2017
    star 2
    Discipline shouldn't be maintained at the cost of all else. There's a reason why 'just following orders' isn't an excuse.
  15. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    Mind you, there is the assumption if you're in the military that they're NOT cackling evil overlords.

    If you're told to shoot an old Iraqi man and his wife, it's not on the belief they're moisture farmers but because they're terrorists or criminals.

    This is brought up in Splinter Cell where Sam Fisher is ordered at one point to execute a female Israeli agent in the back when she's been nothing but helpful for the time you've been working together. It's an order which comes from nowhere and with no context. You also have seconds to react. If you do it, you're never told WHY she was to be killed. If you DO NOT kill her, Sam gets a chewing out from his superiors but also is forced to kill four more Israeli black ops agents and her because it turns out the NSA intercepted a order from her superiors that said since Fisher is carrying a hugely important WMD and is a deniable assets, he should be eliminated so they can get it for themselves.
    Voltron64 likes this.
  16. DARTH_MU Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2005
    star 4
    If I'm her I would rather face the gallows or the firing squad than betray the empire.
    but knowing disney, of course the power of love will convince her to defect. sigh
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    so, a technological enemy hold a stranglehold (valley with cliffs which you cannot climb, like thermopylae) Your commanding officer directly order you to and make do with human sea tactic, you will take the place, but take heavy casualties after 10 minutes. Or you could think man if we could only deploy an airstrike to destroy the enemy. you are not risking your neck and that hot nurse in your unit. The airstrike will get here in 2 hours in which case you won't take any casualities and take the valley unscathed. So then you go back to yoru commanding officer. What do you think will happen to you?

    .
  17. SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2016
    star 4
    Roan Fel was biding his time for the safe moment to return, at which they all BOWED to him. 27 sectors in all. The remainder were traitors for siding with an usurper.
    EDIT: All but Cpt. Compnor who was promptly shot by a heroic trooper.
    Last edited by SpecForce Trooper, Jun 18, 2017
  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    His horror kicked in when they fired on the captured people of the village, who couldn't shoot back.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  19. bizzbizz Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2015
    star 3
    tiananmen square
  20. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    It seems a rather horrible thing to attribute the most horrifying of atrocities to people who choose to risk their lives and possibly die fighting. It seems a gross simplification.
  21. Havoc123 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah this is what I refer to when I say 'Krayt Empire is majority GA'. Most of Krayt's powerbase is former Alliance Space. Now I'm not saying its all Alliance nationals bowing down to Krayt willingly, I'm more of saying the galactic bureaucracy, which only seems to have loyalty to whoever holds Coruscant, has went with the Krayt government and just put on Stormtrooper armor. The GA Remnant have their own loyalist leaning worlds, slightly less than those of the Fel Empire which manages to hold all of their 'core' territories. This is why I so fervently spoke out against BoSS, not because its an all powerful DMV but because it has no loyalty to anyone but itself. Now imagine all those local security organisations that are ran locally. As long as their operations remain untouched, they keep on doing business as usual. Any genocidal tyrant could walk into Coruscant with zero government legitimacy and take everything over. The GF Triumvirate really REALLY actually needs to drain the swamp post-war. :p
    SpecForce Trooper likes this.
  22. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I take a different view. Specifically, I think the TIME of Roan Fel's ascension to power is important. Specifically, at the moment of his overthrow Roan Fel had NO SPACE. Every single Imperial but the Imperial Knights paid lip service to Darth Krayt or they were executed. It was only when Roan Fel took Bastion that he started a war to retake his territory from the Sith and focused all of his efforts onto retaking former Imperial Space rather than liberate Galactic Alliance.

    The comics are very clear how dangerous and secret Roan Fel retaking Bastion had to be done and how they didn't have any real resources until then.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Jun 19, 2017
  23. SpecForce Trooper Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 19, 2016
    star 4
    The Galactic Alliance had loyalist worlds who were under Sith occupation but supported Stazi secretly. I can only assume Fel had the same. How else could a small rebellion last seven years? He had allies. Even after he retook Bastion there were other worlds still held by the Sith that quietly supported him, namely Naboo.
  24. GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin + Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    It seemed fairly clear that "we serve the throne not the man" was a pretty transparent post hoc rationalization for the collaborators.


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 8
    A person can be saying "loyal to the Throne, not the ruler" while in open rebellion - long before the ruler is unseated.


    In the Deathstalker novels - the most "conservative" members of the rebel movements, use the exact same phrasing - and want to replace the monarch with a saner monarch, and impose checks on the monarch's power (turning them into a constitutional monarch) rather than abolish the monarchy entirely.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jun 19, 2017