Does Lucas' vision make TPM the best Star Wars movie?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by TheAnointedOne, Dec 11, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    It's funny how Lucas is always held to much higher standards than other filmmakers who will go unnamed here. Lucas gives due appreciation to his collaborators, but it's still not enough. It's more like he's not supposed to give appreciation, he's supposed to say, "SW isn't mine. I didn't do jack. So-and-so did it all for me while I wandered around the set with a dumb look on my face."
    I very much agree. And it does seem that people are far harsher upon both Lucas and the films -- warranted or not -- perhaps because we, as a public, have a very fulsome collective ideal that we believe Star Wars *should* be held to (fair or otherwise), versus other movies; based upon these incredulous quarter-century-old memories of now-unattainable cinematic mien that the new ones cannot possibly even hope to live up to.

    This is generally why the new films are scrutinized within an milligauss of their digital signals with the religious ardor of a papal catechism.
  2. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    If I hang a Picasso on my wall, the picture itself is Picasso's "vision". The way the painting compliments the decor of the room is my "vision".

    So you agree that when an artist creates something from his imagination it is his vision? The point is, there are a lot of "visions" going on in SW including Lucas. Simply saying that there is just one is simply WRONG.
  3. Son_Of_Kurtzman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 2
    ****So you agree that when an artist creates something from his imagination it is his vision? The point is, there are a lot of "visions" going on in SW including Lucas. Simply saying that there is just one is simply WRONG.****

    A lot of visions, indeed, but none greater than Lucas himself. Each person adds his or her ONE thing. Lucas adds his multiple aspects, plus comments on each person's ONE thing they bring to the fold. He's the one holding it all together, evolving and sculpting the overall world, with pieces from many creative people, none more than himself.
  4. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    I just think it is interesting that the movie that is closest to being 100% Lucas' vision (TPM) is the worst Star Wars movie, in my opinion, of course.
  5. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    I just think it is interesting that some of you can't see that they are all Lucas' vision as interpreted by the people he employs.
  6. Son_Of_Kurtzman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2002
    star 2
    ****I just think it is interesting that the movie that is closest to being 100% Lucas' vision (TPM) is the worst Star Wars movie, in my opinion, of course.****

    Well, if that's the only point you wanted to prove by creating this whole long thread, why didn't you just come out and say just that, and then ask if anyone agrees with you?
  7. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Um, I created this thread not TheAnointedOne. I think you are confused.

    I just think it is interesting that some of you can't see that they are all Lucas' vision as interpreted by the people he employs.

    And I think you throw around the term "vision" too loosely like its some magical term that means: Lucas' imagination + other people's ideas + other people's interpretations + anything else that doesn't go quite right + anything Lucas changes his mind on 20 years later. Your attempt to sum up every aspect, involvement and creative drive into one man's vision is pointless and wrong.
  8. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Well it's just how Lucas did it.

    If it was such a wrong approach, then why do you like any of these films?
  9. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Well, when using that magical "vision", where it includes everything and anything, term you are right.
  10. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    It's not a wrong approach, it's a collaborative one. And collaboration rules out the possibility of any one person saying "this is MY work above anyone else's." That's far too solipsistic an attitude for an artform like this.

    The Lord of the Rings, the films, are not all Tolkien's vision. Tolkien's vision is expressed in the books. The films are a combination of visions: Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh, Phillippa Boyens and Stephen Sinclair wrote the screenplay, the actors interpret the characters as written in the screenplay, and the sets are interpretations not only of Tolkien's descriptions, but of paintings by Alan Lee and John Howe. The end result is a collaboration of visions, not simply one man's.
  11. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Nobody is saying Lucas did it all on his own. It took a lot of help to acheive his vision for the final films. It's just that Lucas the one guy with the vision, everyone else is there to help him flesh out that vision.
  12. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Yeah, but they aren't just scooting him around in a Limo and grabbing pens for him to write. They are putting their OWN visions into the creative process therefore, it is a team vision. But you seem more interested lumping other people's ideas/visions/imaginations into ONE man's vision which entails that they are Lucas' and hence negating the contributions of other people.
  13. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    No, they are just using their talents to bring Lucas' vision to fruition.
  14. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Don't they have a vision when they imagine creatures or compose music? Why do you insist on transforming other people's creative contributions to ONE person? If a person is given "creative" control over something, they use their minds to invent things. Saying the music in Star Wars is Lucas' vision robs Williams of his own personal vision for the music. Calling it primarily William's vision would be wrong too as Lucas gave him an idea of what he wanted. So the music in Star Wars in the vision of Lucas and Williams.

    When Lucas selects creatures and ships from the designers, he is working together with them. He takes their visions of ships and decides which one he likes. He is working together with the designers to bring about a vision. They are all working towards a co-operative vision.

    But once again, you have this 100% view of Lucas. There is never any middle ground with you Go-Mer. All the success of Star Wars is because of one man. Do you need a higher pedestool?
  15. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    "Um, I created this thread not TheAnointedOne."

    Actually, I did create this thread and let me explain why. What I found to be interesting was the fact that when TPM first came out, everyone was excited about Lucas finally achieving something that was totally "his vision" with Star Wars. I remember many on this forum expressing how it was good for Lucas to write, direct, and produce these movies because we would finally get "his vision" for the prequels (as opposed to the OT where Lucas' vision got "blurred" with other directors and producers). I created this thread in order to find out if the people who felt that it was important to have Lucas' vision for these movies like TPM better than the others. It makes logical sense that if I think Lucas' vision is best for these movies, then I think that the prequels are better than the OT.

    By the way, interestingly enough, I remeber some of the people who were boasting about TPM being closer to Lucas' vision than any other Star Wars movie and now they have suddenly decided that ALL of the movies are Lucas' vision.

    This thread backs people into a corner. Either you have to admit that Lucas' vision is not what is best for Star Wars or you have to admit that TPM is better than the movies of the OT. (Or you can do what many are doing and just claim that ALL of the movies are equally Lucas' vision!)
  16. SomeRandomNerd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Surely when the designers, animators etc. are doing their thing for Star Wars, they are doing what Lucas is asking them to do, until Lucas is happy with the result?

    So is it really their "vision", if the seed is something that Lucas is planting?
  17. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Does anyone else find it humourous that Hawk claimed to have created this thread when it was really TheAnnointedOne's? In the end, it turns out that Hawk was just using his talents to help flesh out TheAnnointedOne's vision. :)
  18. Obi-Ewan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2000
    star 4
    A discussion thread is hardly something that has anyone's "vision" at it's core.

    Lucas may fine tune the animation, but look at the designs. Each character goes through many, with nothing more from Lucas than a thumbs up or thumbs down. He only gives vague descriptions, and lets the others do the creative part. Lucas didn't design Dexter Jettster or Yoda, for example, so the final product is not his "vision," but the combined work of the design team. Lucas had in idea for a pod race, but the arena itself was the vision of his artists. Lucas creates the characters, but it is the actors who flesh them out. A thousand different actors could play Hamlet a thousand different ways. The reason we know the Star Wars characters the way we do are because of the actors who play them, not how they are written.
  19. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Lucas tells his art department to design a whole table full of aliens. Then he comes through, and takes one or two of them and gives it his stamp of approval. For example, in the puppets to pixels doc, they show Lucas selecting features from two maquetts to be combined into one design to be used for Dexter Jettster.

    Lucas tells them what he needs, they go to town and create several approaches to Lucas' request, and then Lucas selects the ones he likes the best.

    To me, this makes it Lucas' vision as interpreted by the artists he employs.
  20. TheAnointedOne Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 2, 2002
    star 2
    But what about the OT? Aren't those movies less GL's vision than the PT since they were directed by someone else (in particular ESB which Lucas calls Kershner's movie)? And if they are, then are they inferior movies?

    I mean here's the thing, any reasonable person would have to admit that if someone writes, directs, and produces a movie, it's more of their vision coming across than if they co-wrote, produced, and gave it to someone else to direct.
  21. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Not at all. Lucas planned out the story, worked with the storyboard artists to plan out how the film would come together, then he had Kershner run the operation that set out to get the shots that Lucas wanted.
  22. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Whoops, I forgot which thread I was posting in. I didn't create it!
  23. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
  24. hawk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 3, 2000
    star 5
    Here are two good examples that show we are not getting Lucas' 100% vision.

    1. Anthony Daniels played 3P0 like an english butler. Lucas wanted a used carsalesman type to fit the role. He decided to just let Daniels do what he was doing and change the voice later. When he attempted this, he realised the mannerisms fit the original voice so he kept Daniel's vision for the character. Note that Lucas did not WANT this. He was FORCED to accept the change of his vision as there was no alternative. How is 3P0 entirely Lucas' vision then?

    2. Hamill remarked that Lucas got depressed during filming of the trash compactor scene. He said that George saw something in his head that wasn't matched with what we saw on screen. Hence, his vision was not being played out as he intended again. Why was this? Budget constraints perhaps? Lack of technology? Or it could be that the actors and designers made it differently than from he wanted. Hence, his vision is not properly conveyed.

    The point of a "vision" is an idea he sees in his mind and then tries to map out that idea on film. When it doesn't reach film the way he invisions, then it is no longer his entire vision. And with so much creativity going into SW, he can't deliver that vision 100%. He's still the creator and boss but what we see on screen is not entirely his vision. That is more the case with the OT as he didn't direct or entirely write TESB and ROTJ.
  25. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    The point is they are striving towards Lucas' vision. In the end, Lucas could have decided to stick with his original idea to use a used car salesman voiceover on 3-PO and Mark was depressed because while trying to live up to Lucas' vision, they weren't quite reaching it.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.