Does Lucasfilm Need New Leadership?

Discussion in 'Lucasfilm Ltd. In-Depth Discussion' started by Rickleo123, Jun 21, 2017.

  1. Oissan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2001
    star 7
    Yes, that's partially true, though I have never heard of Lucas having trouble and thus bringing in Spielberg. He did that because he could, not because he desperately needed help. In general, the situations aren't really comparable. Reshoots are common, and they are planned in advance as well. ROTS had some pre-planned reshoots that ran according to schedule. TFA had them as well. Rogue One had regular reshoots planned, though in the end they needed to postpone and extend them quite a bit. Han Solo now has extended shooting as well. Having reshoots is not a problem, there is always some stuff that comes up that needs a bit of tweaking. Having much longer reshoots than planned, and bringing in additional people to lead the effort, is not part of that.

    In the end it is the final product that matters. Rogue One turned out great, so there is little reason to complain about extended reshoots. From an outside point of view it is hard to say whether what is happening is good or bad. It could be that these decisions are stiffling the creative flow, or it could be the complete opposite, and these decisions are all necessary to protect the integrity of Star Wars and to deliver good movies. As long as the finished movies are popular and bring in a lot of money, you can't really say that the approach is wrong. Though you obviously need to be careful not to burn through too many people, else you might end up in a situation where many talented writers and directors don't want to take the risk anymore and avoid working on these projects.
    Jester J Binks likes this.
  2. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    Wow. They are so ahead of their time. If you consider 40 years behind ... ahead.

    I honestly don't remember any serious rumblings in 1977-1983 about Leia not being demure enough for their comfort. Everybody loved Han, Leia and Luke. And you are generalizing. Luke was not a machismo man default. He was literally the "I care" guy. There's a whole important scene in Empire where Han admits his condescending moves are essentially a defense mechanism. Not just for Leia, but for Luke, OB1, 3PO and just about everybody (except Chewie) that he runs into. And if you can't recognize the same defense mechanisms in Leia, then that take might be the sexist one. Their attraction was they shared similar flaws and strengths. "You're a great leader" ... "Yes your worshipfulness" "You came in that thing?"

    OB1 and Yoda were quirky. Vader was brooding (some of his best scenes are just non-dialogue scenes of him thinking). 3PO was SNL's Debbie Downer. Trying to pretend certain personality traits don't exist and shouldn't be portrayed in fiction is not healthy. How is the "cocky" guy getting the girl any worse than the "nerdy" guy getting the girl (which can sometimes come off creepy)? How is two guys fighting over the same woman any more exploitative than two girls fighting over the same man?

    And why does every topic seem to always end up in these false dilemmas?
  3. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    The last two questions you asked are the false dilemmas. No one suggested that Han and Leia should not end up in a romance together, or that a love triangle in which two men try to win a woman's affection is somehow worse than one in which two women fight over a man's affection. (Personally I find all love triangles arbitrarily dramatic and was glad that the one in the OT was put to rest early in ESB, and permanently so with Luke and Leia revealed as twins, but creepiness has nothing to do with any of that).

    I definitely remember the serious rumblings, and there are posters here who were adults at the time who remember them better than either of us could, and hell, there are occasionally still comments about it here, about Leia being "mean" because she called Luke and Han out on their lack of planning instead of just being sweet and gracious.

    This whole commentary came in discussion about the Han Solo movie and what differences might have come about with Kennedy and Lord and Miller, and the point was made that the scene in Empire in which Han pushes himself on Leia probably would not go over very well in modern times, although it was fine in 1980. A changed viewpoint on scenes like that does not involve changing Han's entire personality, because Han's personality is cocky and sarcastic, not "pushing self on women and refusing to take no for an answer."

    Han still had plenty of cocky sarcasm in TFA ("Tell him that Han Solo is stealing back the Millenium Falcon") so I doubt Kennedy's leadership means that he will be a different person.

    If that is the concern, I don't think it is one. If the concern is that there won't be a repeat of the scene in which Leia was fixing the Falcon and Han walked in...it probably is valid, but I'm not sure why such a scene would need a repeat.
    Jester J Binks likes this.
  4. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    And there are comments (even dedicated threads) about Han being a jerk to C-3PO. It is actually worse for 3PO because the underlying theme was Han and Leia were too busy putting up walls of self-sufficiency and false bravado instead of being vulnerable by being the first to admit they actually liked the other. 3PO, he was just outright annoyed with and quite possibly didn't care for right up to his death. (picturing Han giving 3PO the gentle face caress right before he falls to his doom [face_hypnotized] saying with his eyes "I will always love you no matter how many debbie downer comments you make.")



    First, you mean where Leia was clearly having trouble turning the handle into a locked position so he tired to grab THE HANDLE to help. OMG. If he didn't help, we'd be talking about how he stood there and let her struggle to prove she needs him. Where's the repeated "NO" coming from. He was too busy putting up the "Leia? Yuck. No. She's not my type." defense to be told no repeatedly.

    Oh, and then she obviously hurt her hand and he simply started massaging it. OMG. Like a female/male has never had a male/female grab their arm, hold their hand despite not being in an established relationship or even started getting a neck/back massage from somebody either romantically interested in them or just as a friend. Most of the time, it is only as innocent, welcomed or unwelcomed as the reaction of the person receiving.

    And here is a test. Let's say it was Luke and Han instead of Leia and Han. The discussion would be Luke's homophobic response.

    [IMG]


    The only true reason for Han not to have an intense lovestruck yet insecure disguised as cocky reaction to a woman in the Han Solo SW Story is because we want Han/Leia's relationship to be one of a kind. But even that is somewhat unrealistic. If he ran into Hera, he could be drawn to her leadership abilities coupled with a common *human* flaw of not wanting to admit straight out when they like somebody out of fear it won't be returned.

    But let's say Han is just a Don Draper "you know you want me type with that famous male chauvinist, Jennifer Hudson, attitude of You're gonna love me. So be it. People are complex. It is quite possible to be both tragically flawed yet genuinely caring. But nah. Let's just make all the villains irredeemable and all the heroes without a few striking flaws.

    And again. It seems clear that Han's bravado had inner thoughts not of "I'm the best and perfect" but "you think a guy like me ...."

    I honestly find this new simplistic idea of what is inappropriate the unenlightened one, or at least a complete detachment from accepting humans can be flawed yet still worthy of acceptance.

    And it is fiction. Anakin is tragic as fiction. In real life, he'd essentially be irredeemable. That's the beauty of fiction. Let's not lose it.
    Last edited by Jester J Binks, Sep 10, 2017
    Prisic Duskleap and Martoto77 like this.
  5. QuiWanKenJin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2005
    star 4

    What I keep wondering is, if George Lucas were still running things he would want to put his hands in everything and probably write some of the content. But as for Kennedy she just hires other people to write stuff and collaborates with them. Is it because she doesn't have any interest in writing Star Wars stories? No interest in storytelling? Or is it because like Abrams her understanding of the subject matter is mostly superficial? Or maybe all the above? [face_thinking]
  6. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 5
    Leia lost me when she called Chewie a "walking carpet." Not being demure is one thing, thanking someone who helped save your life by referring to them in such a degrading manner is quite another. Sure, it's supposed to just be a funny line in a cheesy movie, but within the saga context it's a moment that makes Leia seem like an awful person.
    Prisic Duskleap likes this.
  7. Outsourced Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2017
    star 4
    Uh.

    Maybe its because she knows its not her place?
    anakinfansince1983 and 11-4D like this.
  8. StoryWorthTelling Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 8, 2015
    star 2
    I came into this thread expecting some of the discussion now to be about Colin Trevorrow "leaving" Episode IX. I know Book of Henry didn't go over well with the general audience, but I enjoyed Safety Not Guaranteed and Jurassic World.

    I understand that the later reports indicate he may have become too self-indulgent to be a good teammate when closing the Sequel Trilogy. And on its own, any of the issues would not have been a problem for me. But we've got a weird track record now:

    1. Josh Trank fired from the Boba Fett movie (due to issues with Henry Gilroy and strange reports of his behavior from Fantastic Four)
    2. Gareth Edwards forced into extended reshoots/rewriting on Rogue One (which resulted in a popularly well-received film)
    3. Lord and Miller fired from Han Solo (most of the way through the film due to not following the script)
    4. Colin Trevorrow fired from Episode IX (due to behavior but caught before filming)

    I think it's worth noting that these directorial decisions all came around the same time. My expectation would be that future films would be announced one-by-one with directors attached, and that the internal process of choosing directors has changed since the hiring of Lord and Miller and Trevorrow. Round One did not go well internally, but resulted in good films. Round Two? We'll see. Hopefully Kathleen Kennedy and Lucasfilm has learned from their mistakes during this first go-around.

    And if they do learn and are able to move forward with less drama (as it looks like they're doing by catching issues earlier with Episode IX)? Then Kathleen Kennedy and the Lucasfilm management is doing their job correctly. Especially if The Last Jedi is well-received, the Ron Howard Han Solo film is generally considered good, and Episode IX does well. In the end, the final product is what matters. It's also worth mentioning that the general reception of the final product is the only thing that matters, since you can't make a product everyone will like. If you didn't like The Force Awakens, that's sad for you, but the general population enjoyed it and so it's a success on the books. If Lucasfilm keeps having successes, Kennedy keeps her job, and she deserves to.
  9. QuiWanKenJin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2005
    star 4


    In others words, she knows she isn't a storyteller.
  10. QuiWanKenJin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2005
    star 4

    Unfortunately we will not know the details when everything hits the fan. However, here is some speculation as to what keeps happening. Perhaps this is related to another subject on these forums, "the mystery of George Lucas's story treatments." Let's just say for all intents and purposes Disney chose to diverge from Lucas's treatments, as far as we know. But KK feels there is a limit to how far they (the producers) are allowed to diverge. Maybe these directors are drifting too far from how KK interprets Lucas's vision and feels it would do his creation a disservice, if they went too far with it, what would be too uncharacteristic of the source material?
  11. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    Kennedy does not have to be a storyteller. That's not in her job description.
  12. Rickleo123 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2016
    star 3

    Excuse me? That IS her job description. She has final say on all aspects of the script/story. She has to fundamentally understand the dna of the story and how all the beats play out. Just because she's not sitting at a typwriter with and writing the dialogue she needs to be a great storyteller or SW is doomed.
    Prisic Duskleap likes this.
  13. Outsourced Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 10, 2017
    star 4
    I disagree. It's like the difference between a writer and a curator. Isolated works vs. Works compiled into a whole.
    DrDre and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  14. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 6
    I don't think she necessarily has to be a great storyteller, she just has to know one when she sees one (and when she doesn't). There's a difference.
  15. QuiWanKenJin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2005
    star 4
    She thinks Abrams is a good storyteller, were doomed. [face_phbbbbt]
  16. anakinfansince1983 Nightsister of Four Realms

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 9
    No, her job description is producer. Not scriptwriter, not storyteller.

    As others have said, she needs to have a feel for Star Wars and recognize a good story, but that does not mean that she must be able to tell a good story herself, unless she personally starts writing scripts.

    And what we will not get into in this thread is a back and forth of "She doesn't know a good story!" "Yes she does!" That is ultimately a matter of taste and such arguments go nowhere good.
    DrDre likes this.
  17. Strongbow Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2014
    star 5
    If Kennedy is worth her salt (and she is) she cannot and will not feel beholden to Lucas' musings on the future story. She can, and must be willing to follow her own instincts on story and direction. We're not talking about novels here. We are talking about Lucas's rough story outlines. According to PH they were not full film treatments. She cannot be a crative leader if she does not trust herself and her creative team to tell a compelling Star Wars story.
    Last edited by Strongbow, Sep 12, 2017
  18. Nibelung Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2017
    star 2
    The only problem then would be coming up with a story in the first place. IMO TFA feels like it's a bunch of set pieces in search of an overarching narrative.
    Last edited by Nibelung, Sep 12, 2017
  19. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    How can you say that when the story has soul searching questions like "What were they thinking?"

    TFA sounds like the opposite of what I always hear as writer's advice. Write the ending first and work your way back.

    Maybe KK is just treating JJ like the child that is finally getting discipline. "You will finish what you started :kylo: and not leave your mess for someone else to clean up."
    Prisic Duskleap likes this.
  20. I Are The Internets Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 8
    Lucasfilm will elect a new leader. A strong leader! One who will not let this tragedy continue!
    Jester J Binks likes this.
  21. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    To be realistic, Your Internets,
    I think we're going to have to accept JJ Abrams control for the time being.
    Prisic Duskleap likes this.
  22. Dagobahsystem Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2015
    star 6
    I do not think Lucasfilm needs new leadership. Reshoots and director changes do not concern me.

    The final, finished product (art) is what matters. The process of creation varies with each artist or team of artists/creators, as it were.

    For example, Mozart would sometimes write perfectly finished manuscripts from his head, with little to no further editing whatsoever.

    Wheras Beethoven often labored, rewrote, destroyed, scratched out and started over on many of his works that turned out to be masterpieces.
    Martoto77 likes this.
  23. Jester J Binks Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2016
    star 4
    Don't forget. We are in the Karl van Beethoven era of Star Wars.
    Lt. Hija likes this.
  24. ewoksimon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2009
    star 4
    I think Kathleen Kennedy is doing her absolute best under the pressures of needing to a release a new Star Wars film annually. If anything, I'd have preferred if we went back to the release schedule of a new film every three years. That way each film gets the full attention of Lucasfilm for that period of time, rather than trying to juggle 3-4 films at once.
    Last edited by ewoksimon, Sep 13, 2017
  25. Strongbow Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2014
    star 5
    That's not the way production rally works, though. Various departments have more or less work depending upon the phase of the production. There is no reason concept artists and production designers cant be working on the next film while the previous film is in photography and post. It's not much different from production of any product.... the product lifecycle still applies.
    Martoto77 likes this.