ST Does Luke still see good in Kylo?

Despite acknowledging that he can't bring Kylo back from the darkness, he suggests to Leia that perhaps he isn't completely gone. Does this suggest that Luke thinks there is still hope for Kylo?

 

I'm pretty sure Luke lost most of his hope when he was contemplating murdering him in his sleep.

Then seeing him destroy his temple murdering several children along the way, probably made things worse.

After that, he became Snoke's apprentice, lead the FO to power and wiped out the Republic along with five whole planets which I imagine didn't help much either.

Of course Luke was almost about to try and save him but then he went on to murder Han Solo which made him evil again.

He did pause before trying to kill his mother, however, which almost made him a decent guy again.

So naturally he betrayed Snoke and tried to turn Rey to the dark side so that he could obtain complete control over the entire galaxy for himself. Which I think is probably when Luke ran out of patience.

 

It seems unlikely that Luke would have given up all hope that there is good in Ben, considering he saved Anakin.

 

I said this in another thread, but it bears repeating. Luke knows he cannot save Ben, but he acknowledges no one is truly gone, including Ben. So there is still hope.

 

Yep. In that moment (Ben as Supreme Leader moments from wiping out what’s left of the Resistance) Ben is iredeemable. He’s not going to be talked down. Luke doesn’t kill Ben. He lets him and the Resistance live to see another day. A resolution is still possible.

 

Yes and that is the scariest part. Kylo isn't being consumed by the dark side. He isn't slipping or falling.
He is running toward the darkness kicking and screaming at the light to get off of him.

This isn't an issue of trying to find some dying ember of good and stoking it to life at all. I think people are missing the nature of the problem. This isn't like Anakin at all. Anakin was still a hero with Ren level conflict to grasp on to.

Luke has no shot here. The only people capable of influencing Ben (aside from the obvious himself by his own will and intent) was Leia, Han, maybe Rey, and possibly if he were to have any offspring would there be a connection powerful enough to change his perspective enough to be unselfish enough to drop his pursuit of the dark side of the force.

Not as an uncle that we have any reason to believe and definitely not as a master spread out with a number of padawans and with Kylo being the type to despise and resent his teachers and authority figures as much as anything.

Sure, he has light in him. Now what? To what effect is it when it only drives him to more wickedness to kill it in order to strengthen his tie to the dark?

All evils are not equal nor the same in their natures.

There is always hope but Luke cannot save him, it just isn't within his power or ability to influence like it was with Vader and then it was still more about Vader than Luke. Luke would not turn and seeing the Emperor wasn't playing that Vader is forced into a choice. Luke had no super power of light side retrieval. He just was a Jedi and the son of his father but Vader chose and Anakin returned.

There is no such lever between Luke and Kylo and not enough of one where there is in most cases to prevent a lightsaber through the heart it feels like.

 

I think he knows Ben is nowhere near as far gone as Darth Vader was, but at this point, I think Luke is mentally exhausted from his trials (and errors). But, as Yoda said, failure is the greatest teacher. After all, Luke's failure wasn't nearly as problematic as the failures of Kenobi and Yoda. Maybe Luke feels that the rise of the Dark Side is inevitable...

 

The thing is, Luke never "hoped" there was good in Vader. He could sense the good.

 

If I recall correctly, Kylo says (mocking) if Luke came there to "save him"... to which Luke says something like "I am afraid no".

I think that Luke had to apologize to Leia first, and after Leia gave him her blessing, he moved past trying to save him.

This trilogy will not go the same as the old one... do not hold your breath waiting Kylo being redeemed.

 

Still see good in him? Yes, it is clear Kylo is conflicted to some degree.

Still think there is hope for him? No.

 

If the question is does Luke still see some good in Kylo, I guess I'd have to say yes.

His comment that he "can't save him" just means that Luke himself doesn't think he can save him, literally just as he said. But someone else could, or Ben Solo could maybe do it himself.

But I saw the end of the movie as Luke sticking it to him...not trying to save him at all...just making a total fool out of him in order to stall and keep the Resistance and the light alive, and leaving it up to the future to determine whether or not Ben Solo turns back to the light. I don't think Luke is going to directly try himself.

 

Movie made it seem like Luke just doesnt even care about it.

 

Luke seems to think it’s impossible for him to save Kylo, so maybe he still sees some good in him.

That being said, if you saw good in someone, you probably wouldn’t think about killing them in their sleep. Luke saw the slightest hint of good in Vader and thought he was redeemable. As far as Kylo goes, Luke may have lost all hope for whatever reason.

 

Luke: Leia... I'm sorry.
Leia: I know. I know you are. I'm just glad you're here... at the end.
Luke: I came to face him, Leia... I can't save him.
Leia: I held out hope for so long. But I know my son is gone.
Luke: No one's ever really gone.​

To me this is a clear answer. If Luke believed Ben Solo was gone for good he would have agreed with Leia, "Yes, your son is gone for good." But Luke doesn't say that at all! Instead, Luke says, "No one's ever really gone." Therefore, Ben Solo isn't really gone. This was Luke being honest with his twin sister. He would never give her false hope, that would be cruel. When Luke Skywalker says something, I believe it.

Does Luke see good in Kylo at the moment? NO. Kylo has no goodness in him now... But he's still young and goodness can come back. Just because he's evil now doesn't mean it will always be that way. People's hearts can change, nothing lasts forever. Luke can't turn him back to the light, personally. That's because it's up to Kylo to fix himself, he's the only one who can make that choice. His fate is not written in stone at this point so it's still possible for things to change. The vision Luke saw was just one possible future.

 

This is splitting hairs. Yes, a Jedi can sense if there is good in someone. The difference is arbitrary. See the question.

It doesn't bother me if Kylo is redeemed or not. What matters is that the heroes (or at least Luke) maintain that there is hope, give his experience with Vader.

I'm still confused why people think that scene suggests Luke sees no hope in Kylo.

 

No. He's given up on him.

Luke could see good in Vader, he knew it. He sees none in Kylo.

 

Luke also had a deep connection with Vader, one he doesn't with Ben.

 

Given that Ben doesn't kill Leia, and given that Leia was told that “no one is ever really gone”, and given that Episode 9 was to be Leia-focused, perhaps the idea was that Leia would be the one to try and bring back Ben.

Another possibility is that Luke meant despite him being irredeemable, Leia’s memory of Ben back when he was good would always be with her, just like Han (thus the dice).

 

I think there's at least a little bit of good in everyone, including mass-murdering dictators. The question TLJ poses about Kylo is: Does the good outweigh the bad?

Luke realizes the answer is no. Leia realizes it. By the end of the movie, even naive, idealistic Rey realizes it.

At this point, I think the audience needs to realize it as well.

 

Yup! What we see between Luke and Kylo is, I think, very similar to what was between Vader and Ahsoka. Ahsoka didn't give up on Anakin and wanted to bring him back if she could - but she realized that there is too much bad blood here. Too much baggage, too much betrayal. Vader couldn't be turned by Ahsoka, because she was a part of his life he sought to leave behind him. Ahsoka has abandoned me. The Jedi betrayed me. Padmé has turned against me. As Vader says in the new volume of the Darth Vader comic book, this life he has now is all there is for him.

In the end, all Ahsoka could do is to stall Vader to protect her friends, to stick with him to the bitter end. The parallels between The Last Jedi and Twilight of the Apprentice are pretty astounding, now that I'm thinking about it.

Either way, as Filoni himself says, only Luke could bring Anakin back, exactly because he was the last legacy of his old life that wasn't spoiled and rotten. He reminded him of what was good about his past, of the life he and Padmé could have had. He was a representation of Padmé, without all that pain the memory of her carried for him, reaching out to him. Similarly, Kylo will have to find his own vector back. He has burned his past down, got what he wanted and it was all for naught - so what now? If I may share my preferred path, then contrary to RotJ, it shouldn't be Rey pulling Ben up from the hole he dug for himself, like Luke pulled Anakin. She tried once and Kylo chose the Dark side instead. No, now Kylo will have to do the work himself, for Rey.

 

Agree. He wants to kill his past. He killed Han and wanted to kill Luke. He couldn’t bring himself to kill Leia but he was bearing down on her location with AT-ATs. If anyone is going to redeem Ben it’s more likely to be someone completely new to him, like Rey.

 

If thats true, then why did he exile himself to achtoo with the intention of dying? Why did he and leia have a conversation specifically about "ben" being lost? Why did he respond with "no" when kylo asked if he was there to offer forgiveness and to save his soul? The luke you're describing sounds like luke from the OT, not the character that was shown in TLJ.

 

The Luke in TLJ does not see any light in Kylo. He made it clear at the Crait confrontation.

 

"Nobodies ever really gone". Quite simply Luke can't redeem Kylo because it was him that ended up pushing him completely to the dark-side. Take for example, Obi-Wan. He'd have never ever been able to redeem Vader because to a degree he pushed him towards the dark-side.

All Luke did at Crait was give the Rebellion hope. It'll fall to Rey to redeem Kylo.