PT Does Palpatine successfully use Force persuasion on Mace and Anakin?

Anakin and Mace both seem to change their minds in major ways about the correct course action after Palpatine speaks to them in a commanding "persuasive" voice.

Once Anakin defeats Dooku in ROTS, Anakin waits indecisively not knowing what to do for almost a half minute while Dooku remains defenseless. He even wavers ten seconds after Palpatine suggests that he kill Dooku. However, once Palpatine commands Anakin to "Do it!" in an intimidating "persuading" voice, Anakin immediately kills Dooku. Afterwards, Anakin seems bewildered by what he has just done.

Later in ROTS, Mace arrives at Palpatine's office intending to arrest him, convinced that the proper path is to have Palpatine stand trial. Using the same voice that he did with Anakin, Palpatine claims, "I am the Senate!" During their duel, Mace clearly has not been able to learn anything more about Palpatine's influence over the Senate, yet by the end the duel, for some reason, Mace suddenly agrees with Palpatine, arguing, "He has control of the senate and the courts. He's too dangerous to be kept alive."

Are these both examples of Palpatine using Force persuasion on Jedi during times of duress?


Here is a more detailed account of how these 2 scenes transpire:

Dooku is defenseless on his knees his head between the two blades in Anakin's hands. Anakin stands there, not knowing what to do.
Palpatine then says, "Good, Anakin, good... Kill him. Kill him now."
Ten seconds pass as Anakin seems too troubled to follow through with the request. Then, Anakin finally says, "I shouldn't."
At this point, Palpatine states in a sinister and powerful tone: "Do it!"
Once Anakin hears this, he immediately slices Dooku's head off.
Afterwards, Anakin seemingly bewildered by his own behavior, telling Palpatine: "He was an unarmed prisoner. I shouldn't have done that. It's not the Jedi way."
(BTW I love the little smirk Palpatine shoots at Dooku after he tells Anakin to kill him. It's sort of like saying "I gotcha, Dooku!")


Later in ROTS, Mace arrives in Palpatine's office with three other Jedi to arrest Palpatine. Mace says to Palpatine: "In the name of the galactic senate of the republic, you are under arrest, Chancellor."
Palpatine replies, "Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?"
Mace's response is: "The Senate will decide your fate."
Using the same sinister and powerful tone with which he spoke to Anakin, Palpatine says: "I am the Senate!"
Mace retorts: "Not yet."
As Palpatine begins his attack, he says, "It's treason, then."
The duel commences, and it concludes with Palpatine pinned on a window ledge with Mace's blade pointed at him. Anakin arrives, and while Palpatine holds off Mace with Force lightning, each accuses the other of being traitors, and Palpatine reminds Anakin that he is the only one who can save Padme. Palpatine pretends to unable hold Mace off any longer and relents in his Force lightning attack. At this point, Mace states: "I am going to end this once and for all."
Anakin objects, saying, "You can't. He must stand trial." (So, now Anakin is basically arguing the position that Mace held just moments before.)
However, Mace ignores Anakin, and strangely adopts Palpatine's claim from earlier in the scene even though Mace has learned nothing new about the Senate or how much influence Palpatine has over it.
So, rejecting Anakin's objection and adopting Palpatine's claim "I am the Senate" without any new evidence, Mace makes the following argument that is totally unverifiable from his point of view: "He has control of the Senate and the courts. He's too dangerous to be kept alive."
Anakin reminds Mace that it's not the Jedi way to strike down a defenseless foe, but this still does not dissuade Mace, and he lifts his blade ready to kill Palpatine despite Anakin's pleas. Feeling he must kill Palpatine, Mace swings for the kill, forcing Anakin to intervene, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted all along given that it places Anakin in a position where he has to become Palpatine's apprentice and embrace the dark side.


Any thoughts?

 

If that was true... Lucas would of wasted about 5 min in exposition to relay that to the audience.

 

those 2 scenes have INCREDIBLE BAD WRITING

Anakin doesn't want to kill the guy who cut his arm off???

and Sidious luring Anakin by showing weakness?, no, bad guys lure people by showing how powerful they are, and in that scene Palpatine is way more pathetic than Jar Jar Binks, who would join that guy??

 

Both utterances of Palpatine appear to be very intentional cracks in the veneer of his grandfatherly-guise, as well as how the scenes mirror each other to display the hypocritical flaws that exist in both Anakin and Mace.

 

No, there was no mind trick. In the first case, Palpatine essentially gives Anakin an order and he did it because he wanted to. In the case of Mace, Palpatine demonstrated how powerful he was and provoked an angry response out of Mace which is why he changed his mind.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

Because that's not the Jedi way. A Jedi does not seek revenge, nor do they kill someone who is helpless.

"You almost come a second too late. You're rushing over to make sure that nothing happens-but your anticipation is that they're going to hurt each other. When the lightning starts things are going from bad to worse from your point of view. And when Mace is going to kill him, you have to act.

Try and increase how uncomfortable you feel as the shot goes on. Try to think back on the Darth Plagueis story-run that through your head. Take it one step further: you realize that by telling the Jedi about Palpatine being a Sith that Padme is going to die. Basically, you just killed her."

--George Lucas To Hayden Christensen, The Making Of ROTS.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204

"Okay, well this sequence always started out with Mace uh overpowering Palpatine and then Palpatine using his powers to try to destroy Mace and Mace deflecting his rays with his Lightsaber. It always was that Anakin cut the Lightsaber out of his hand. But this part where he pretends to lose his power and be weak was something that I added later cause this is it moved the point where Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you can see that he’s now that its very clear that he’s, he wants him to go on trial so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"It made a lot more sense to have him stay loyal to the Jedi which meant later on in this scene with the fight with Mace, we re-did that scene and at first there wasn’t the part where the Emperor gives up, he goes - “You got me! You got me!”. It was basically the scene without that where it gets more intense and Anakin finally breaks down and saves him, but it didn’t have the same feeling as that pause in there where you think…and it makes the Emperor a lot more slimy, it's really fun. it’s a dramatic thing to deal with."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

Now to start off, I'm going to say that I'm the sort who goes by what appears on the screen over GL's words (not meant to imply that you were), and I'm not sure if GL has ever addressed my particular question directly. I'm more trying to find the best interpretation from what we see on screen. Now, I agree that the Mace situation is more complicated than Anakin's. Mace loses his cool, and he can also see and (more important) sense just how powerful Palpatine is. (In fact in the novelization, if I recall correctly, Mace feels as if he's an instant away from being incapacitated by Palpatine's lightning before Palpatine "coincidentally" lets up, so that brush with near-dear could be a good explanation for his change of heart.) It could also be that Palpatine possibly used Force persuasion when he says "I am the Senate!" and that this is a factor that plays along with the other factors shaping Mace's actions.

However, it seems different to me with the Anakin scenario. Palpatine tells Anakin in a normal voice: "Kill him, kill him now." Palpatine is giving him a direct order there, but Anakin doesn't follow it. He just stands there for 10 seconds not doing anything. That is when Palpatine says "Do it!" in a distinctly different tone, and after Anakin hears this, he immediately kills Dooku. No hesitation. Anakin refuses the Palpatine's order when it's said one way, then he immediately follows the order when it's said in a sinister and commanding fashion. That suggests to me that there is more to the effect of Palpatine's words than the words themselves. So, in this case, I can't explain Anakin's defiance of Palpatine's order and then his following of it, unless Palpatine used Force persuasion when giving the second command.

 

He wants to kill him. But he is allowed to kill him. That's the point. A half-way attentive viewer would notice. So it's bad watching in your case

It's Chancellor Palpatine here, not Sidious. And he doesn't "lure" Anakin, he wants him to lose control. He achieved.

I don't believe in Force persuasion. "Do it!" is the spark that gives Anakin the "courage" to give in to his emotions and "I am the Senate" is a venemous provocation.

 

I dunno about Mace, but it's fairly obvious Anakin had been brainwashed by Palpatine since he was a child, whereas Mace was pretty cold to him.

 

I more inclined to believe the man who wrote, directed, & created this franchise over a random fan's interpretation. I don't care how powerful Sidious is. It only works on the weak minded. Anakin might be a little naive, but he's not weak minded. And Mace... you're telling me the second most powerful Jedi in the universe is going to follow some vague force persuasion Sidious blurted out probably 5 - 10 minutes prior to Anakin showing up?

 

I have to say...I don't think there was possibly Force Persuasion involved. Just an extraordinarily shrewd guy that knew exactly what buttons to push to elicit the action he desired. Smart guy, that Palpatine.

 

No,

Palpatine is NOT a God like figure that manipulated every single thing in the saga,

I may sound blunt here, but these threads that consist of "did Palpatine make Anakin win the pod race?" or "did Palpatine make sure that that it was the decoy that got killed instead of Padme?" etc really raise my eyebrow,

Palpatine was a good politician that could use already established events to go his way, like a lot of the Roman Emperors did. Nothing more

 

Well said, Rick! I have noticed this tend as well and find it ridiculous how some act like no one had any choice or responsibility in anything 'wrong' in the Saga but Palps or Dooku. Yes, they did. Including the Jedi and the Senate.

 

While I generally agree, I think he did orchestrate a lot of it.

I don't see a force-persuasion technique with Mace, just Sidious' true persona coming out in the delivery of "I am the Senate". This similar tone in his line "Do it" however feels more significant in terms of persuasion for Anakin. It appears with this moment it's quite significant that Palpatine was always pulling the strings to allow Anakin's turn to happen. If he hadn't been there Anakin likely would have come back from it and not killed Dooku in cold-blood.

I myself have given Palpatine too much credit on ocassion (such as Palpatine's worried look as Anakin attempts to land the Invisible Hand in ROTS I interpreted as fake, which in retrospect was probably genuine fear). Palpatine's influence on events on the saga seems quite omniscient however, this has been established since ROTJ where he is demonstrated as knowing Luke would come to Vader, and the Rebels would attack the second Deathstar. In AOTC he seems to put Anakin and Padme together ("I realize all too well that additional security might be disruptive for you, but perhaps someone you are familiar with... an old friend like... Master Kenobi"), and in ROTS he totally plays the Jedi Council, making them do things under the illusion they are defying the Chancellor where they are playing right into his hands... sending Obi-Wan to fight Grievous for example keeps Kenobi away from Anakin and leaves Anakin closer to Palpatine.

 

In my view, the difference is I'm presenting evidence. There is absolutely no evidence that Palpatine helped Anakin win the pod race etc.

However, when you have Mace for some reason change his opinion after he has learned nothing new about the Senate and his new opinion of it exactly matches Palpatine's opinion and when you have Anakin wait 30 sec not knowing what to do with Dooku and he ignores Palpatine when he speaks calmly and then he instantly does what Palpatine says after Palpatine takes a commanding tone, then I think it's fair to suggest that Palpatine might have had an influence (at least some influence) on the events (perhaps just enough to push someone on the edge to take Palpatine's view).

In each case you have a distinct change in behavior without an obvious cause. All I'm doing is suggesting what that possible cause might be. I didn't tell anyone that this is the one true interpretation and none others are valid. I'm not even sure I agree with it myself. I simply opened a topic that might be interesting for discussion. This is a discussion forum, isn't it?

I simply didn't think anyone noticed this pattern in these 2 different scenes, and I wanted to let people consider what I had noticed. Personally, I like having people share new interpretations for the films. I don't always agree with them, but sometimes I can see that there is more than 1 way to read a scene.

I don't think GL has ever commented on this topic. Also, in my post, I agree with you that your explanation for Mace's change in attitude makes sense, so I don't understand why you're bringing him up again. I also agree with you that Palpatine could not possibly use Force persuasion on a Jedi in a non-heated situation. I certainly don't think he could walk up to Anakin and say "Go get me a milkshake" and Anakin goes and does it and then wonders what he has just done. I'm simply suggesting that Palpatine's possible use of Force persuasion, especially in Anakin's case, may have pushed someone who is just on the edge, over the edge. And again, I don't understand all the hate. Come on, I'm just starting a discussion topic.

Hey, HevyDevy, thanks. Thanks for coming after me. Now I owe you one.

 

You're not really presenting evidence, just opinions. Circumstantial... at best. You, like many others, are putting way too much thought into these movies. Palpatine was a manipulative & calculating politician & a ruthless Sith Lord. This isn't one of those "what does it all mean" art house movies you leave the theater still trying to figure out.

 

Again, I'm just trying keep things on the discussion level and throwing around ideas.

I agree that the evidence that I am presenting is circumstantial. However, when it comes to a character's motivation for behavior in a film, you usually have to go with circumstantial evidence. Films don't allow us to hear the thoughts of characters like books sometimes do. With a film, you have to infer behavior based on what's going on and what you know about the characters.

The following is just a silly example, but I'm using it to show what I mean. When Obi-Wan says, "These are not the droids you're looking for." We infer that the stormtrooper responds the way he does because he is weak-minded and because Obi-Wan is using Force persuasion on him. However, we can't know that's the case. Maybe the stormtrooper really hates the Empire, he's afraid to leave it, and he decides to let Obi-Wan pass because he's sympathetic with the Rebellion, and he only asked about the droids in the first place because he didn't want the stormtrooper with him to be suspicious that he's a traitor. We can't possibly know what's going on in the stormtrooper's head because we can't hear his thoughts. Consequently, we infer what has happened based on the circumstantial evidence of the scene. My point isn't at all that we've misinterpreted the stormtrooper scene. My point is that all we can possibly have from a situation like this is circumstantial evidence, not direct evidence.

I also agree that some of us like to over-think SW, but I'm not the only one. I started this thread so that those of us here who are into the nit-gritty hypothetical stuff could talk about this topic, and maybe I was wrong. Maybe this is a dumb topic. I just thought it seemed interesting.

 

Palpatine set up the whole thing leading into the Lightsaber duel in Grievous's quarters, but what he didn't anticipate was Obi-wan's survival. Everything after that was out of his hands. Likewise in revealing himself to Anakin, he anticipated multiple outcomes and prepared accordingly. That's how a good Sith Lord works. But stuff before he even knew of Anakin, nah, that's just wishful thinking.

When it comes to Mace and Palpatine, he changes his minds because he's mad now. Palpatine just killed three of his friends and fellow Jedi. He's just now realized what it is that he is dealing with and so he has decided to go beyond what he and Yoda discussed hours ago. Palpatine provoked an angry response and got what he desired.

 

(Removed. ~Sx3)

 

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I don't think Force persuasion was involved. I think Palps is just a great manipulator.

 

Not another "Palpatine can control everything" thread. Is it really that important to use Palpatine as a scapegoat for the bad decisions of other characters?

 

Palpatine used his force persuasion to make you type your reply because he wants to keep just how powerful he is a secret. That's how powerful Palpatine is! Everything that has transpired on this thread has done so exactly according to his design!

Seriously, though, the Mace scenario is more of a reach, but it seems Palpatine's influence is what pushes Anakin over the edge and convinces him to kill Dooku. I don't think he would've killed Dooku if Palpatine wasn't there, and Anakin wavers indecisively for almost a half minute. Then when Palpatine says "Do it!" Anakin does it instantly. Maybe it's Force persuatsion or maybe Anakin follows Palpatine's order because he is so close to him, though he doesn't follow his command when Palpatine tells him calmly, "Kill him. Kill him now," so that's what gave me the idea. Also, I'm simply throwing out the idea that Palpatine is pushing someone close to the edge, over the edge, not that Palpatine is so powerful that the Jedi are weak-minded in comparison to him and that Palpatine could tell Yoda to get him a cafe latte, and Yoda would blindly do it.

So, really what I'm saying is that Palpatine takes advantage of a situation when Anakin is clearly conflicted. He tries to use regular persuasion (which fails) and then Force persuasion (which barely pushes the conflicted Anakin over the edge). Not trying to say Palps is all-powerful. Just that he's willing to use any tool in his tool-belt to try to achieve a goal, and that it works b/c Anakin is so conflicted.

 

That's the whole point of that duel and the duel in ROTJ. That's how a Sith Lord turns one to the dark side that was a Jedi Knight. But he doesn't use the Force. His voice changed because the mask of Palpatine is slipping and the face of Sidious is coming out. For the people who were in the dark, this was the beginning of the revelation that he's the Emperor.

 

Anakin absolutely wanted to kill Dooku and it is only his Jedi guilt that holds him back. Being given "permission" by the Chancellor validates it for him and allows him to justify it in his mind and the Jedi never find out how Dooku died. No force influence was necessary here on Palpatine's part.

Giving in and becoming Darth Vader allows him to kill without thought or guilt permanently

 

I think when you get to the level of Yoda and Palpatine, using the Force is not an on-or-off thing. Like, "Now I'll use a Force Push, 25 mana... and Force Persuasion, 75 mana...." It's more like using the Force is part of the natural way they live their lives. Palpatine is always searching the Force for ways to get an advantage. He doesn't have to "activate" to know how to get his point across. His wise old uncle persona wasn't getting the job done, so he took another tack.