Does Palpy/Sidious believe he is doing what is good and right or does he know what he does is evil?

With all the talk of Anakin's turn to the dark side, and how it blinded and twisted his point of view that he no longer can determine what is right or wrong, or what is good or evil.

So it begs the question in regards to Palpatine/Sidious to ask if believes his Sith philosophies and actions are actually good, or does he know that what he is doing to be evil.

Palpatine said to Anakin that good is only a point of view, and that the Jedi and the Sith are similiar in many ways.

Now does Palpy/Sidious actually believe this to be true, or was that just apart of his plan to twist Anakin's thinking?

Has Palpatine been twisted by the dark side to the point he really believe the ways of the Sith are actually good, and actually would benefit the galaxy, or he is truly like Satan, the devil and that he truly knows what he is doing to be sadistic and wrong, and enjoys the pleasure of all the deception and manipulation he has caused?

It makes you ask the question, does the dark side take control of the person to the point they can no longer distinguish between what is right or wrong, or does the person still maintain the ability control their thoughts and actions?

Darth Sin!

 

E.V.I.L.

 

WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!

WAIT JUST A SECOND!

You mean to tell me that Palpatine is Sidious?



In all seriousness - Palp/Sids knew he was evil. He was the master manipulator. His tactic in getting Anakin to turn was to distort Anakin's belief of good and evil. That the Sith actually do good for the benifit of humanity. Sidious has a different plan for each person he attempts to turn. He plays on what each persons weakpoint is. With Luke, it was trying to make him so angry that he would turn. He got close to succeeding. With Anakin, he played to his emotions, and he had to make Anakin initially think he was doing something right. For the benefit of all. Anakin really is a noble person, and he doesn't mean any harm, but he has his flaws. To turn him takes the right cicumstances, which again is what Palpatine catered to.

Not only that, consider his method of turning everyone against each other, instilling fear in some, while making others sympathetic. He did it for himself. And he was showing his true evilness towards Luke when he was attempting to get him to turn. He was trying to be so evil to make Luke hate him, and in turn fueling Lukes hate to make him turn.

I think he was more evil than hateful, to be honest. I think evil and greed combined are his two most characteristic traits as a sith, where as Vader's anger and fear was his most characteristic trait.

 

Has Palpatine been twisted by the dark side to the point he really believe the ways of the Sith are actually good, and actually would benefit the galaxy, or he is truly like Satan, the devil and that he truly knows what he is doing to be sadistic and wrong, and enjoys the pleasure of all the deception and manipulation he has caused?



I believe that he really believes it. Most egomanical people do.

 

I was just looking through my Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary this past weekend for the first time in a while, and in that it says Palpatine doesn't see himself as evil, but as a savior. I tend to agree with that in some respects. I don't think Palpatine did what he did just for the sake of being evil, but because he wanted revenge, power and control over the galaxy. Those are selfish desires that are evil depending on your point of view. If you want to rule because you genuinely want to make the world (or galaxy, in the case) a better place, and you don't get to your ruling position through illegal means, I see nothing wrong with that desire. But doing it the way Palpatine did and for the reasons Palpatine had is evil. A good way of looking at the difference in attitudes is in the case of Anakin/Vader: he starts out wanting to help others simply because he can, and expects nothing for himself out of it. But by the end of Episode III he wants to make things the way he wants them to be just to exercise his power, and everything he does is motivated by selfishness.

 

"One of the issues in all of this is the bad guys think they?re good and Lord Sidious thinks he?s bringing peace to the galaxy, because there is so much corruption and confusion and chaos going on and now he?s going to be able to straighten everything out. Which maybe true but the price the galaxy is going to have to pay for it is way too much."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


"What drove me to make these movies is that this is a really interesting story about how people go bad. In this particular case, the premise is: Nobody thinks they're bad. They simply have different points of view."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 53.

There you have it. Clear as purple crayon.

 

I completely disagree with George Lucas' ideals about the notion of true evil. Fortunately, you don't have to agree with him much of time to enjoy his films.

To me, Palpatine doesn't care about a Sith ideology or a peaceable government. He just cares about ways to amplify his own power. This is why he desperately wanted Anakin Skywalker at his side, because to him, Anakin would help him become a more powerful ruler. However, by Return of the Jedi, Palpatine sees Vader as no more that an impudent brute that constantly questions his plans and ideologies. This is why at this point, Sidious needs Luke Skywalker. Luke, unlike Anakin, knows the Rebel Alliance inside and out, and with his help, the Empire could ruthlessly crush the Rebellion much like how Anakin helped crush the Jedi remnant after the fall of the Republic. So by using selected apprentices, Palpatine would continue to expand and crush opposition until he reached his unrealistic apex point of ultimate power.

Palpatine IS the dark side incarnate in its purest form, just like how Anakin was created to be the light side in its purest form. I just wished Mr. Lucas could've adressed this point more obviously at some point in the films.

 

He's like Anakin in that his greatest desire is control. In order to have control, you need power and if you're obsessed enough with getting it, you'll do whatever's necessary, without giving much thought as to whether the means of achieving it are evil or not. I think he probably believed that things were best when he was controlling them. He had screwed up beliefs.

 

evil all the way

 

Like yoshi said (well, like Georgie said first).

Palps is evil, of course, but he's not evil in the sense that he has an evil day planner and twirls his moustache while laughing maniacally. The most dangerous people are the ones that do evil deeds in the name of good - never realizing that they are, indeed, evil.

 

Yeah, he's defnitely evil. His motivation makes him more than just a Scooby Doo / James Bond, caricature kind of villain though.

 

Palpatine is amoral--without morals. Good or evil is not an issue.

I don't think Palpatine cared one way or another if he was evil or not. He wanted power and then to keep it. The end justified whatever the means. If it means doing good deed to keep that power he'd do it. If it means he had to kill a million sentients, he'd do it.

But the good deed would be tainted because of why he did...

 

So you wouldn't say that killing a million sentients to maintain power was evil?

 

Lucas' point is that Sidious simply doesn't understand "good" and "evil" the way that we do. So, from our point of view, of course he's evil.

Unless you deal in moral absolutes.

 

I don't think he even contemplates good and evil. If an act will facilitate him achieving what he wants, he just does it. The question of whether he actually is evil is more complex. Awhile ago there was a long and in depth discussion here about whether the Empire was evil and it got into the territory of absolutes and whether there is actually such a thing as evil, or just points of view. Personally, I think if there's such a thing as a good act, then there can be an evil act. If there's no evil, then there's no good either, there are just things that people do.

 

Palpatine did care about maintaining his power, but he also cared about bringing about a peace through a totalrian (sp) society. But no, he didn't see good and evil as the Jedi did. As he says to Anakin, "Good is a point of view." This also applies to his view of the dark side and evil. That is why he speaks of the Jedi Order as narrow-minded and dogmatic, because from the Sith point of view it is. The Sith came about because they were once Jedi who felt that they should've been doing more. Rather than be the humble servants of the Republic, they should use their power to rule. This is what lead to the great schism in the Jedi Order and the birth of the Sith.

It is a truth about our world. Evil does not see itself as evil. Hitler, Saddam, Stalin and a host of others are evil as we know it. But they did not or do not see themselves that way. This also extends over into many other areas including governments and religion. What is good to one is evil to another. What is right to one is wrong to another.

 

Oh, please!

(Not so much you, Sinister, but the topic starter)

By all conventional standards: Palpatine is evil. How hard is to grasp the blindingly obvious? Watch him taking out Yoda or reacting to Anakin's anguish. He LAUGHS about the destruction of goodness and purity. On a slightly more elevated level, if one studies Palpatine's dialogue with any detail, one can see that he has the morality of everyone sussed out -- which only a very shrewd and intelligent man could do. Such a person could never believe they were doing good. Palpatine knows everyone, including himself, all too well. Granted, if you look at Palpatine without filtering him through the prism of conventional morality, then he is a pure vessel of amorality (i.e. he has no morality of any kind). Either way, however, he doesn't stand for goodness, and he damn well knows it.

The question is worth being applied to Anakin, however. And that's what gives the saga resonance: one person believes they're doing good (between having moments of clarity where they think and feel otherwise), but the other knows -- knows beyond all shadow of a doubt -- that they're bad. The former alternately feels vindicated and pained; the latter is filled with an orgasmic joy. You're blurring the two. Don't become another victim of Palpatine's bull****! Consider what I've said and look at the saga again. I hope you gain a new perspective. We need clear thinkers in this world.

 

So just because Palpatine takes pleasure in inflicting pain on others, he views himself as evil? You know, there are people in our world who most people would describe as mean, sadistic bastards. They hit people, they kick, whip, cut, even shoot people and laugh while doing it. Do they see themselves as evil? No. They just don't care. They have no sense of empathy and therefore look at other people as potential victims for their violent outbursts.
Palpatine, I believe, is like that. He's a calculating bastard who happens to enjoy hurting others. Of course he realizes that others view that as evil, which is why he creates an Empire, where he can hurt people in peace.

EDIT: The above is, of course, a sign of weakness on Palpatine's part. He has this dream about an Empire where he can do whatever he wants, but he lacks the insight to look beyond his dream and see that it won't last for long. His sadistic urge is so strong that it makes him half blind and over-confident.





Palpatine - he's so happy
/Flames

 

That is why he speaks of the Jedi Order as narrow-minded and dogmatic, because from the Sith point of view it is. The Sith came about because they were once Jedi who felt that they should've been doing more. Rather than be the humble servants of the Republic, they should use their power to rule. This is what lead to the great schism in the Jedi Order and the birth of the Sith.


Yep. Even from other points of view, the Jedi are narrow-minded and dogmatic because they choose to be. But thats not a bad thing, and I dont think Anakin quite understands that. They choose to limit their power, the Sith do not.

 

Many philosophers and theologians posit that "amorality" is the ultimate form of evil, far worse than immorality, as the immoral person is still grounded in morality, thus recognises it, while the amoral person rejects his role as a member of society (the social contract)--this is the ultimate form of evil in their minds. This is particularly true in the philosophy of the Enlightenment, which remains the grounding of Western thought. What is moral vs. what is immoral can be debated: it is true that one person's good can be another person's evil (take religious wars, Jihad, terrorism, etc.--the perpetrators truely think their actions are good, the rest of the world are equally sure they are evil); however, the person who hurts others without such conviction is truly antisocial; there is no justification for their actions on moral grounds, ergo they are amoral, which is merely another way of saying truly and universally evil, beyond any ethical debate.

 

I would expand on that and say that the Jedi choose to limit the USE of their power. A jedi should strive to become as strong as he can, but use the power gained for the good of the whole, not for selfish reasons like the Sith do.

 

I wonder is the dark side similiar to the good side of the Force in this regard according to Obi-Wan to Luke in ANH. "It not only controls your actions, but also obeys your commands"

So in like manner, does the dark side control the actions of the person, as well as obey their commands?? So does the dark side not only control actions, but thoughts and thinking as well.
We know that Yoda said, "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny" So from this, I guess this answers my question that the dark side does control one's thoughts and beliefs.

So this is the case with Anakin when he turns, and it has been the way of life for Palpy/Sidious as a Dark Lord of the Sith, that he may well actually believe his philosophy of life and government is the way.

Darth Sin!

 

Palpatine being amoral is very much an apt way of describing his persona. He doesn't care what others think of his actions. Just that it is his way or the highway. Serial killers do not see themselves as evil. Dictators do not see themselves as evil. Most rapists do not see themselves as evil. People who abuse their families do not see themselves as evil. It is easy for others on the outside to see the evil, just as we see the good. But when it is yourself, that is where the point of view comes in. Take a look at the men who participated in 9/11. None one of those terrorists saw themselves as evil. They thought that they were doing a good thing, by crashing all those planes and causing the deaths of innocents. Take the guy that has been on trial for his part in terrorist attacks. His testimony during his trial said that he didn't care. He didn't see himself as evil. He proclaimed that America is evil and that everyone who died on 9/11 desreved it. He has no remorse. No guilt. No rational conscious that we know of. That is evil without any thought that he is the one who is evil. He is someone who truly believes that he is a good person, whereas the rest of the world is evil. Take Hitler. He thought that he was doing a good thing with the Jews, even though the rest of the world saw through his actions. Those aren't the only ones. There are countless other who are not public figures, who are very much in the same boat.

 

I have to agree with Master Chbell. With Palps the ends justify the means. The man had his home planet invaded just to increase his own political power.

 

Yep. You pretty much answered your own question. Lucas, Kasdan, Kershner, Kurtz and possibly Brackett discussed this.

It was decided that learning the ways of the Force had to be a constant struggle for Luke and that he would always have to prove himself. In regard to the dark side of the Force, the story meeting transcripts [for TESB] suggest that although one can?t see it, it should be the real villain of the story. In his training Luke discovers the roots of the evil Force. The danger, the jeopardy is that Luke will become Vader, will be taken over. He has to fight the bad side and learn to work with the good side. Lucas felt that at one point during the training Ben should explain to Luke that he should use his powers with moderation. If he uses too much of the Force, it will start using him. For example, to lift objects Luke has to use the bad side of the Force, so if he overuses this power, the dark side will start taking him over as it did with Vader. When Luke fights, he has to use the dark side, but he is also using the good side for protection.

--The Empire Strikes Back: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.

So in a sense, that is what happening. Lucas also talked about how being evil makes it easier to do things without the hassles that come with doing it the good way. The right way. Hayden did confirm that when Anakin turns, he starts to convince himself that Palpatine says is the gospel.