Does Race And Economics Have Anything To Do With The Response To Katrinas Devastation In New Orleans

Wow, talk about speculation! Are you privy to such information or are you just making stuff up? Imagine how large a conspiracy there would have to be in order to delay rescue operations and aid based on skin color. You're dealing with several different organizations and thousands and thousands of people leading the operations.

Now if you want to talk about skin color and why New Orleans and other predominantly black areas are the only ones having these problems right now we can do that...

I'm not speculating, just observing. I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, either. But I can say that so far, I have not seen the different rescue organizations being very effective, from what I've seen from the media coverage. This is probably due to Bush's politics (i.e. incoporating FEMA into homeland security, trained more for terrorism than for homeland disasters).

Either way, it doesn't really affect me. I'm not a resident of the States, and truth is, the reason so many people are dying right now is because of the complete disorganization that is going on with the rescue efforts. This is due, in part, to the people New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana elected into their municipal, state, and federal governments. Now they're living with the consequences of their choices.

 

There you go, you may be right. I don't understand the whole "hostile zone" thing. You'd swear it was a war zone. I just can't imagine that.

 

You can make accussations all you want, but until you provide SOMETHING to back it up it means nothing here. I hate George Bush, I think he's a terrible president, but I see NOTHING to suggest that rescue efforts would have gone any differently with any other president. Just seems to me like Bush-haters are looking for one more reason to hate him, no matter how idiotic or illogical that reason may be.

 

They're not really like the reserves beyond a superficial "reserve fighting force" level. The ADF's reserves exist to compliment troop deployments and thus they lack the other half of the national guard mandate.

Look, race and economics are going to be a factor to be considered. Simply put; those with no equity or assets will obviously be hit the hardest and, I would wager, would be disproportionately black. However, to argue that this somehow affects the attempts to coordinate and manage the situation is, in my opinion at least, trascending healthy cynicism for outright pettiness.

E_S

 

You can make accussations all you want, but until you provide SOMETHING to back it up it means nothing here. I hate George Bush, I think he's a terrible president, but I see NOTHING to suggest that rescue efforts would have gone any differently with any other president. Just seems to me like Bush-haters are looking for one more reason to hate him, no matter how idiotic or illogical that reason may be.

Okay, I think you need to calm down. I was simply stating my opinion, I never said it was fact. Hence the word "observation". And I find it odd that you tell me to stop making 'accusations' when you just made one yourself.

Just seems to me like Bush-haters are looking for one more reason to hate him, no matter how idiotic or illogical that reason may be.

 

They're not really like the reserves beyond a superficial "reserve fighting force" level. The ADF's reserves exist to compliment troop deployments and thus they lack the other half of the national guard mandate.

As E_S pointed out, the US does have the reserves as well. The three components are the Active forces, the Reserves, and the National Guard.

The reserves are assigned directly to fill in with active forces, much like the ADF's, or most other nations seem to be. I don't know if may other countries have a concept like the National Guard.. Maybe Italy's Carabinieri?

 

I am calm...I didn't mean to come across like I was bashing you. But you did make an accusation when you said "I'm not a resident of the States, and truth is, the reason so many people are dying right now is because of the complete disorganization that is going on with the rescue efforts. This is due, in part, to the people New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana elected into their municipal, state, and federal governments. Now they're living with the consequences of their choices."

I'm just asking you to provide proof or evidence that would make you come up with that. Do you have any? Heck, even explain why you think that could be the case, instead of just throwing stuff out there.

 

Well, have you been watching CNN lately? I find it to be the least biased of all American news networks. Personally, I watch the CBC and CTV, which can go into American issues with detachment, and it seems, from what I've read and heard on the TV, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing (on the ground in Louisiana and Mississipi). You just have to read an article like this to see that the situation is completely out of control. But I can't say that if such a natural disaster struck Canada, DART (our rescue agency) would do any better.

 

Yeah but you said it's the result of complete disorganization by the rescuers which somehow leads back to a Republican whitehouse. I haven't read any report to suggest that A.) It's completely disorganized, although on the ground that seems to be the perception, but we're not privy to inside information at this time B.) What's going on right now has anything to do with Bush in any way shape or form.

 

Not racism really. Just a difference in priorities. If Katrina was a terrorist, the Whitehouse would have drained the Gulf of Mexico to stop it. Defense dollars would have made sure of that. Amazing how we can feed legions overseas but not refugees within our borders.

(Feed legions overseas, why not refugees. Wasn't that a song?)

 

Well, George Bush is the head of the executive branch of what is called the federal government. Until well after the hurricane struck, he was on holiday. Until well after chaos swallowed New Orleans, he didn't have any plans to secure peace. His Vice President and Secretary of State are still on holiday. New Orleans still doesn't have the troops, resources, or food they need, and it's been days.

The complete, utter, Third World lack of leadership here is pretty clear to most people with televisions.

God Bless George W Bush. The two biggest security failures in American history on his watch.

Gut gemacht.

 

Either way, it doesn't really affect me. I'm not a resident of the States, and truth is, the reason so many people are dying right now is because of the complete disorganization that is going on with the rescue efforts. This is due, in part, to the people New Orleans and the rest of Louisiana elected into their municipal, state, and federal governments. Now they're living with the consequences of their choices.

Heck, why don't we just say it is there fault for being poor. They choose the people in office who would improve the schools or not, bring in more and better paying businesses or not, change attitudes of upward mobility or not, etc.

 

Again, you raise some excellent points, but ones which extend beyond this specific disaster. Those who face extreme poverty will always get the shaft in relation to the rest of society. These extremely poor are also the ones that don't get decent medical care, nutrition, or education, so not being evacuated out of the city is but a single item in a long list of items.

I suppose the pragmatic answer would be that the evacuation system saved 1.3 million people out of 1.4 million potential victims. By the numbers, that's a pretty effective system. Is that overly harsh? Again, I don't know.

Well one of the problems is that we don't know precisely what the goverment did to raise awareness or to get people out. It seems that nobody here thinks there were any efforts made to send in relief teams to some of these poor efforts to help where it was needed: if you were disabled and without transportation, apparently: for instance if you needed oxygen tanks as did one particularly deceased man, or you needed something more generic like a wheelchair, the government was not really around to help you get out of the city. You had to rely on yourself.

I'm not sure the reason for this. It might actually be that the volitile situation we see now in the city is not precisely new. The no-go areas of New Orleans are as bad as the largest cities of the US though New Orleans might have a disproportionate population. One way or another this was not done.

Also what might be a problem, as I said, was awareness. From what I've heard people were on the television, from thier own descriptions "pleading with people to evacuate".

It sounds mighty sympathy enducing but is it the truth or a defense mechanism to draw questions away? The questions that have to be addressed is: "how many times have evacuation orders been given?" and "what was done to emphasize the situation?" Part of the real value of having a free bus transit out of the city is not the ease of cost of getting people out of the city -- its the fact that it's a tangible service off the television or radio that shows people both high and low are taking this seriously.

 

Why doesn't Bush give his forthcoming speech in New Orleans?

 

Probably isn't safe for him there.

Economics does seem to be playing a factor here; most of the faces I've seen on the news stuck in the city have been african-american.

I'm wondering whether or not the federal government will consider a nationwide price-freeze on gas.

In terms of evacuation, it has been rather slow in some aspects, but I'm not really all that familiar with the logistics involved, so I really shouldn't comment.

Peace,

V-03

 

I'm wondering whether or not the federal government will consider a nationwide price-freeze on gas.

That would be disasterous. Any sort of price controls will simply create additional shortages, as it drives businesses that cannot afford to operate within those prive controls out of business.

On the radio this morning, they reported that some gas stations have been told by their suppliers that they need to close early to limit their sales of gas. If they don't, the suppliers have threatened to apply additional costs to the non-complying stations.

The problem with gas isn't the price, but that the supply is becoming restricted. The solution to the high prices is to either reduce demand, or increase supply.

Kimball Kinnison

 

The problem is that it's not oil production that is limited now, but refinery capacity.

Pumping more oil does no good if we can't process it.

Kimball Kinnison

 

I have no idea what that last line meant, but I definitely agree with the rest. That's how Bush has helped create this unorganized, choatic, rescue effort, Cyprusg.

Heck, why don't we just say it is there fault for being poor. They choose the people in office who would improve the schools or not, bring in more and better paying businesses or not, change attitudes of upward mobility or not, etc.

I do not fault them for being poor. You're also assuming that these poor, black people actually voted in their recent elections. All I'm saying is that the people of Louisiana and Mississipi voted for who they have currently in office, and if these people who were elected are bungling up the organization of the rescue effort, then those who voted these people in have to live with their choices.

 

Sweet God in Heaven some of you people are absolutely amazing. The relief effort is moving forward, but it is taking time because of the extent of the damage involved. Over 3,000 people were rescued on Day One by the Coast Guard, and rescue efforts continue to this day.

While "armchair first responders" continue lay the blame for Katrina and the government's response on President Bush, they forget one thing... this is a local disaster, and government relief efforts are the responsibility of local officials (governor's, mayors, state/city government). Clearly, the shrill voices calling for the head of George Bush (i.e., Michael Moore, the new York Times, and Aumgn from these boards) know absolutely nothing about how the American government works at all.

George Bush did his job, he declared the Gulf States disaster areas in advance of the arrival of Katrina, so federal funds and federal assistance was ready for states as they needed. What those states did with those funds and assests in response was their own job. If you want to blame anyone for what we are seeing in New Orleans blame Governor Kathleen Blanco...

Let's see we have a Category 5 hurricane bearing down on your city, so how many National Guardsmen do we call to duty, oh 2,000 should be enough... Hunh???? She's the one who made that order, not Bush, she controls the Guardsmen in her state... and before anyone goes carping about how all of Louisiana's Guardsmen are all off fighting in Iraq, almost all of them are back, so there were plenty of National Guard and Army Reserve units for her to call on.

I find it amusing that by this weekend there will be over 24,000 Guardsmen from Louisiana and Arkansas to restore order in the city... well why the hell didn't you call them up before the storm hit... talk about fixing the barn door after all the horses are back.

Some other curious decisions... okay you move 15,000 people to the Superdome to wait out the storm, then you leave them there with little to no supervision or instructions??? Sorry, Bush didn't make that call on that one Mayor Ray Nagin did, who now is coveniently blaming Bush for the crisis at the Superdome.

When the mayor decided to tell people to go to the Superdome. Did he talk to the governor and request a contingent of upstate Louisiana state police be sent down immediately to help out at the Superdome? From all reports and observations the Superdome seemed almost as much a chaotic and lawless place as the flooded streets. What was the mayor and the governor's rationale for having no plan and executing no plan with respect to the Superdome, other than treating it like an umbrella people could wait under?

Speaking of Mayor Nagin I watched in rapt amazement at his 20 minute assesment of the situation on local news show in Louisiana the day after Katrina hit... all he did for 15 minutes was go on and on about what streets were flooded, when asked about relief efforts he talked briefly about search and rescue efforts by the Coast Guard but then when asked about other relief efforts he said, "the devestation is so enormous I do know where we should begin." Wow! there's an inspiring leader.

Then he was asked about reports of looting and he said he thought it was a terrible thing but that some people are "looting just to survive." Yup, I'm sure that 60" Plasma screen will come in handy as a life raft... and that jewelry will definitly work as a floatation device. Hey Ray, how about having some balls and saying right up front that looters would be shot on sight, and authorize law enforcement to do just that... Well, at least "better late than never" Governor Blanco authorized Guardsmen to do that last night...

Oh and Ray, the National Hurrican Center warned you last Friday that New Orleans was going to be hit by a Cat 5 hurricane, why did you wait to order an evacuation?

If state and local officials have no plan, are not coordinating a plan, are running around like chickens with their heads cut off, instead of commandeering all the resources they themselves have, effi

 

I just don't like hearing "shoot to kill" orders

With no infrastructure and no comforts of civilization in place, this policy is a necessary evil to restore order. New Orleans is more chaotic than downtown Baghdad, so in order to rescue people, I think a zero tolerance policy should be enforced. The animals who rape, beat people, or cause general mayhem should be shot on sight. They will further undermine rescue efforts.

 

Does anyone here actually know what Federalism is?
It would appear not.

President Bush is not the King of America; he does not micromanage every single decision passed by the government people.


We have people like jaya02 claiming that people are being slighted in the evacuation because, apparently, Republicans are rich, evil, and racist.
It?s a nice sentiment, really, and certainly points to the apparent ignorance of people outside of the American political system.
If that is the first thing you can think of for a reply, I?m not entirely sure you would be any use whatsoever in a mature debate.


Apparently Bush should have foreseen, four years in advance, that National Guardsmen would be needed to fight Katrina, and not send them to Iraq and Afghanistan.
Apparently Bush?s policies are in some way directly responsible for worsening Global Warming that actually caused this Hurricane; thank you Senator not nice term.

It Bush?s fault people are stuck in the Superdome, it is Bush?s fault that 15 foot tall levies could not hold back 25-30 foot storm surges, its Bush?s fault somehow, right?

This finger pointing is ********, local politicians and partisan politicos either trying to save their own butts or score quick and cheap points.


The truth of the matter is very simple.

This is one of the largest natural disasters in the history of the United States.

It is going to take a long time to create a proper response that will be useful to those involved.
Flooding the area with volunteers, supplies, and money is useless unless there is a dedicated command and control center to work with.

It takes time to formulate a response that is why this is taking so long.

Katrina was dealt with poorly by those responsible for the people in these areas, the State governments.
This has less to do with Race, Economics, or politics, and more to do with State level administrators being overwhelmed by the size and scope of this disaster.


KK EDIT: Flaming and profanity are not acceptable here. Let's try to keep this somewhat mature.

 

You know, this might just be the disaster where defenders of Bush have to complicate thier defenses a little more and realize that people expect him to be on the ground in Louisana from Crawford, not got to Crawford, then California, then detour over on his way to washington and the finally on Friday arrive in LA.

He could have raised awareness. He could have been on the ground sooner. He could have been there before thursday, when it became clear this had broken wide out into the open. It wasn't until Friday he finally changed his schedule at all.

So stop arguing as if we're wishing America had a president on par with Paul Atreides and start talking about the things we're REALLY SAYING, which is not "George Bush could have stopped the flood with his bare hands" or "George Bush was the man chosen to helm this disaster", but "People were dying on Tuesday and Wednesday. WHERE was George Bush?"

Defending his war in Iraq over in Califronia. That's where.

Mean? No. Cruel? Not even. Lacking? Oh heck, yeah.