Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    I thought in light of the recent spoiler deluge and with the novel/comic out, it would be interesting to revisit this question.

    Sometime back, Pablo said this in his QA thread:

    "One of things I am curious about the force ghost thing that is set to be explained to us in Episode III, is the nature and importance of that revelation. My question is, does the ability to retain one's spirit after death turn out to be of great importance plotwise for what happens in Episode III or even in 4,5, or 6? Or is it just stuck in there just as if to say, "ok here is this nifty little thing they can do and here is how its done" with no more significance to it explained than that? In other words, is it there just as a wink to the fans or does it TRUELY have major plot significance? Thanks"

    "You know, this is one subject that I am avoiding, for a variety of reasons. But I will say this much -- Episode III really adds a subtext to the last shot of the Jedi spirits in ROJ that wasn't there before."


    Also of note is that in the RotJ DVD commentary, GL says that Anakin's body did NOT disappear. Obi-Wan and Yoda are the only two to disapapear on death.
    Another point: GL said that Anakin was able to retain his identity because Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him to retain his identity after he died.
    And of course, spoilers show that Qui-Gon's voice tells Yoda that identity can be retained, and he will teach Yoda and Obi-Wan.

    So.... what in RotS explains why GL took the drastic step of changing Anakin's ghost? After all, Qui-Gon says only Jedi, who are compassionate, can do this, the Sith cannot. Anakin is compassionate in RotJ when he saves Luke. So why change from old Jedi Anakin?

  2. CieSharp Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    Perhaps it is due to the nature of his physical condition at the end of ROTS. Since he is so badly damaged, and it seems his own dark will is the only thing that held him together for reconstruction. Maybe his bodily state after ROTS is considered necrotic and mechanic, thus his force essence would represent his pre-suit image.
  3. Guinastasia Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2002
    star 6
    Because even though he came back to himself, Anakin pretty much died when he became Vader.

    It's almost as if he's getting a fresh start.
  4. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    Maybe because he was conceived by the force.
  5. amazonstorm Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2005
    I was thinking the exact same thing when I saw it...a friend was horrified that they took Sebastian Shaw out...but I was interested and so I thought that the Anakin we would see is the man he was before the suit...I guess I was right...
  6. Jslader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 1999
    star 1
    I thinkGl made a boo-boo, and didn't think this one out, in his zeal to connect PT with OT. Nonetheless, I can forgive him for this....more mad about all the Imperial officers having same rank badge in ROTJ than this.
  7. Darthhelmut Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 2004
    star 2
    I think its pretty easy, he was only a Jedi when he was young.
  8. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    CieSharp, IMO, something simple needs to happen in RotS that resonates with the end image of the saga. Sometime back, people had speculated that Anakin truly "dies". But he clearly does not, physically. And emotionally, Stover shows that when he wakes up in the suit, he realizes that there was always Vader in Anakin. His greatest deed is NOT in RotS, but in RotJ. Why not pay homage to that broken down half-man, who was able to return from darkness and kill Sidious? Or, what is so special about pre-duel Anakin that merits changing his ghost to his appearance then?

    Darthhelmut, he was a flawed Jedi when he was young - as AotC and RotS shows. He was pretty perfect as a pre-Jedi child, but he didn't come back as Jake Lloyd ghost! He is a true Jedi at the end of RotJ when he gives up power, life to do the right thing.
  9. Donnie_Domino Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2005
    star 1
    I think he only "made a boo boo" if you want to believe that. There was nothing wrong with the ghost appearing as his older self, because while me may have *died* in a sense when he become Darth Vader, I believe he was *reborn* in a sense when he saved Luke. Cause he sure as hell wasn't acting like a Sith in that act of compassion that saved his son and defeated the Master Sith Lord Sidious.

    I completely understand the thought behind the change that was made, but I think it was a poor decision.

    Anakin died when he became Vader. But Vader died when Anakin saved Luke.
  10. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    Forever jedi: I agree with you
  11. SnakePlisken Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 26, 2002
    star 4
    Qui-Gon also did not disappear, yet we know he will return.

    I like the idea that Vader knows the 'secret' after RotS. Perhaps it's detailed in the Jedi Archives which the Sith now have control of. When he is encased in the suit, he loses all compassion and thus cannot achieve it until the end of RotJ.

    I think the subtext that Pablo referred to is the key to the 'trick', which is that the Sith cannot achieve it because it requires compassion.
  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his" identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker. "

    --George Lucas


    Anakin dies in ROTS, in a sense. What we see in ROTJ is the real Anakin, reborn through the love of his son. As Qui-gon tells Yoda, it is through the release of one's self. Anakin is released from the shackles of Vader.
  13. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    I like the idea that Vader knows the 'secret' after RotS. Perhaps it's detailed in the Jedi Archives which the Sith now have control of. When he is encased in the suit, he loses all compassion and thus cannot achieve it until the end of RotJ.

    I know that lots of fans like the idea that Vader magically knew or found out somewhere. I choose to go by what Lucas himself has said fairly recently - that Obi-Wan and Yoda help him to do so. Just as Qui-Gon helps Obi-Wan and Yoda learn how to do so. And that indeed explains why even if Anakin didn't disappear, he was able to retain identity. After all Obi-Wan and Yoda learnt from Qui-Gon's spirit, who did NOT disappear.

    Anakin dies in ROTS, in a sense. What we see in ROTJ is the real Anakin, reborn through the love of his son. As Qui-gon tells Yoda, it is through the release of one's self. Anakin is released from the shackles of Vader.

    Qui-Gon tells Yoda that compassion is the key. Vader becomes Anakin and finally shows compassion. that is his greatest moment - he is released from the shackles of Vader. He is reborn as a Jedi. Why is his spirit not retained in the image when he was at his most sublime as a Jedi?

    There is still no solid explanation as why YOUNG Anakin in RotJ, not old! What are we missing still from the novel/comic?
  14. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    The reason Anakin appears young in ROTJ is already explained in ANH. Obi-Wan says that "Vader betrated and murdered" Anakin -- and he wasn't lying. ROTS will make it clear that when Anakin turns to the dark side his good persona (which we commonly refer to as "Anakin") is essentially killed off. What remains is a dark side persona created from Anakin's anger, fear and hatred: Darth Vader. The good Anakin is essentially in limbo, trapped within Vader until Anakin's love for Luke helps him find the power to do the impossible -- to break free from the dark side and return.
  15. Dark_Jedi_Kenobi Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2004
    star 5
    The force ghost shows Anakin before he became Darth Vader. If you think about it, the way he is shown in the DVD is how Anakin looked before he became Darth Vader and so it fits perfectly. I think it kind of explains itself.
  16. Vrolokus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    Anakin's youthful appearance as a spirit is just a visual representation of Anakin's goodness, and of the fact that Anakin died as the good man he once was and returned to being at the end - last seen about 25 years before. It's a metaphor, nothing more... don't take it too literally.
  17. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    It's a metaphor, nothing more... don't take it too literally.

    Actually, it's more than a metaphor -- Jedi retaining their identities after death is a fact in the GFFA and the fact that Anakin comes back in a youthful state EXACTLY where he was when he turned to the dark side is not a metaphor but a plotpoint. Neither Obi-Wan nor Yoda look young -- because they never turned. So what we can see is that Anakin's good side was lost and trapped by the Vader persona all these years. Anakin killed Vader off in ROTJ and returned - hence he picks up where he left off in ROTS.
  18. Jslader Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 1999
    star 1
    Hey!
    Is it possible that Plaegius indeed had found the way to "cheat" death? This sounds like it. Afterall, it seems Anakin, at the end of ROTJ, DID die; Yoda and Obi, who knew how to live on, "brought" him back to life. Maybe Plaegius realzie this-this thing requriing compassion you guys point out-and it led to his demise because he was no longer as strong in the dark side to ward of palps, but not strong enough in the light to save himself?
  19. G-FETT Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2001
    star 7
    I believe Anakin would/should have died at the end of ROTS, had the dark side/his hate not sustained him for all those years.

    When he finally renounces the dark side, his death is inevitable, because the light side embraces death, so when he finally dies properly, his sole returns to the form it would have took, had the dark side not intervened and kept his "living" yet his sole was dead.
  20. blastshield Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 20, 2004
    star 1
    with all the technology in movies today, i wish they could have put hayden's face in the unmasking-aged 25 years. as far as whether or not vader disappears, lucas changed his mind. in the past he said he did, and that the armor burnt at the end of ROTJ. even the official site still says anakin skywalker died and joined the force onboard the death star
  21. Vrolokus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    I'm sorry, I disagree. Obi and Yoda didn't appear younger because there was no discrepancy between their images and their identities. This was not the case with Anakin - Anakin the Chosen One, Anakin the Hero is visually represented as the youthful jedi knight. What else would he appear as? A burned, dismembered man? A hypothetical "old Anakin" that never existed?

    The Force ghosts are absolutely metaphorical. They aren't physical beings, they don't have to put on their Force ghost robes every morning or excuse themselves for a Force ghost pee. They aren't even a true visual phenomenon: Han, Leia, Lando... none of them saw the spirits watching over the celebration on Endor. Luke doesn't even "see" them with his eyes - he perceives them.

    This is an important point, because it goes back to why Anakin appears younger than he was at the time of his death. Luke perceives a good entity in Anakin's presence, he perceives the jedi, not the sith. That perception is represented by Hayden rather than Shaw.

    Anakin has a mythic death experience on Mustafar, but as we know he already goes by the name Vader at that point anyway. "Anakin" and "Vader" are all misleading to some people anyway - it's all the same person. Vader is Anakin's shadow self, and we all have a shadow - Luke was reminded of this in his vision in the cave on Dagobah.
  22. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    There is actually text in the novel scans that can be interpreted this way (he physically dies and Sidious brings him back). I'll have to go find them.

    But Anakin himself states in the novel during his "This is what it's like to be Anakin Skyalker: Forever" internal monologue that he sees himself as the same person. However, this is when he casts "Anakin" out, because of what he percieves "Anakin" has done to Padme. It'll be up for debate forever, just like Anakin dissapearing, his young force ghost, his death, etc.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin is good and pure, once again. He wears the Jedi robes of Obi-wan, because it's his way of showing Luke that he has embraced the light. Burnt Anakin is not right, since that was Vader. And the old man wasn't enough. Lucas wanted to make Anakin's appearence different from the other Jedi.

    The OS has not been updated yet. It will after the film comes out.

    Qui-gon is heard, not seen in ROTS. His body was destroyed, thus he can only be heard by the Jedi. Obi-wan and Yoda disappear, which allows them to join the Force and retain a physical form. They help Anakin transcend his body, which was already damaged and achieve a physical form.
  24. HDX Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2003
    I would think that a force ghost would appear as it wanted to appear.
    And Anakin would want to appear as he was before he turned.

    Thats a simple enough explanation for me.
  25. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    ...besides Anakin is made young by the Force for Padme. ;) That's the least she deserves... :p She doesn't want to be going to bed with a torso or eighty-year old man in the after life. [face_laugh]
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