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Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. Mange

    Mange Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 11, 2003
    Excellent, Darth-Sinister.
     
  2. Deeysew

    Deeysew Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Mar 5, 2005
    So Anakin doesn't die as Anakin Skywalker in RotJ?


    ....Bull ****
     
  3. Jedi_Insurance_Guy

    Jedi_Insurance_Guy Jedi Master star 5

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    Jul 27, 2004
    Here's a thought:

    In either the Graphic Novel or the Novel, there's a scene where Palps makes Anakin live/brings Anakin back to life. Palps is using the darkside to sustain Anakin's lifeforce until the suit can sustain his body. Essentially, Palps has bestowed a new life on Anakin. But what if those two - the suit and the lifeforce - aren't exclusive, but connected? When Vader lets go of the dark side in ROTJ, he no longer has it to sustain his life, and maybe this is why the suit fails (instead of Palp's lightning). This would explain why Anakin appears as his young self instead of his aged visage in ROTJ. His "true" lifeforce was lost in ROTS - ever since then he's been living a life(force) given to him by the Dark side.
     
  4. forever_jedi

    forever_jedi Jedi Master star 5

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    Jun 5, 2002
    Food for thought everywhere! [face_thinking]

    Just wanted to chime in and say that the "disappearing upon death" and "retaining identity" are separate issues and do not seem to be related to one another. I am sure that the OS databanks will reflect this later this year!

    Jedi who disappear: Obi-Wan and Yoda (this technique seems to be the zenith of achievement; perhaps only to be mastered after long years of study).
    Jedi who retain identity: Anakin, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, Yoda.
    Jedi who can come back as a PHYSICAL presence: Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda.
     
  5. G-FETT

    G-FETT Jedi Grand Master star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 10, 2001
    The way Jedi can return in spirit is a differant issue to why Lucas changed the form Anakin takes. The issue of how Jedi return is fairly straightforward and is explained by Qui-Gon.

    But why did Lucas decided to make Anakins spirit youthful? I think thats the question f_J is asking. :)
     
  6. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2004


    The novel of ROTS, as written by Stover and approved by George Lucas, on April 2 kills "Dual Persona".

    "It is only you."

    Perhaps it is as simple as that is how Anakin wanted to appear before his son.



     
  7. rhonderoo

    rhonderoo Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 7, 2002
    That's from Anakin's pov, I think though. It's all very confusing.
     
  8. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 23, 2004
    Vader or Anakin's own thoughts as he wakes up in the suit:

    And there is one blazing moment in which you finally understand that there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

    That it was all you. Is you.

    Only you.


    A conscious realization by Vader/Anakin post Sith and post Duel that they are One and the Same.

    Just like Yin-Yang. Different - but One.


    That name no longer has any meaning for me. - RETURN OF THE JEDI, Vader himself

    You have only forgotten. - RETURN OF THE JEDI, his son Luke


    ------

    I think instead of distorting the Saga, we should look at the simple possibility: That is how Anakin wanted to appear before his son.

     
  9. forever_jedi

    forever_jedi Jedi Master star 5

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    Jun 5, 2002
    Anakin is good and pure, once again. He wears the Jedi robes of Obi-wan, because it's his way of showing Luke that he has embraced the light. Burnt Anakin is not right, since that was Vader. And the old man wasn't enough. Lucas wanted to make Anakin's appearence different from the other Jedi.

    Sinister brings up another great point! GL, a person with METICULOUS atention to detail, brings young Anakin back in robes that he never wore in life. They are robes that Obi-Wan wore or would wear. Has he embraced the light and become an Obi-Wan-like Jedi? is this what he SHOULD have done in RotS? [face_thinking]

    And folks, Anakin's "death" or "near-death" on Mustafar has nothing to do with all this. Anakin is AT HIS MOST EVIL during the period between Mace's death and Mustafar. He is quite a monster then. He seems to be less evil after the suit. So, if "Anakin" died, it has nothing to do with his near-physical death, but death of the LIGHTSIDE in him, around the time he leaves the Temple to go in search of Mace and Palpatine!

    EDIT: Hudnall, yes, the book recognizes that there was always Vader in Anakin. The monster lived inside and he let the monster take over. I like your simple explanation: Anakin wants to show his son what he would have looked like if he had conquered his own dark side, that monster in RotS. As he should have, if he had made the right choice (Jedi robes on ghost).
     
  10. jakson013

    jakson013 Jedi Youngling star 2

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    Nov 4, 2004
    This is off subject but, I just got my new insider magazine and it has a fold out that shows all of the episode III toy figures. The one that stands out the most is almost front and center in the fold out. IT is a figure of anakin with his face haggard, old, distorded looking like the emporers. It is listed as ....50: Anakin Skywalker on Mustafar. He is wearing all black robes and his right arm is sleeveless. Am I the only one that was unaware of Anakin's face making a transition to the darkside?
     
  11. -The_Chosen_One-

    -The_Chosen_One- Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jul 27, 2004
    I always figured it was when the indivudual died as a Jedi/was most connected with the light side of the Force. Sure, Anakin reedeemed himself at the end of ROTJ, but he wasn't as in tune with the light side as he once was at that time.
     
  12. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 23, 2004


    The book goes farther, as does those ROTJ quotes, there is no "Vader" - there is only Anakin. The difference is a name only. Vader is Anakin's own self, his dark half acting out of control - not someone else, just the ugly side of himself.
    ------

    Off topic, :) , I really like the use of the "dragon" analogy in that passage. "Slaying the Dragon" goes right back to Joseph Campbell's THE HERO WITH A THOUSAND FACES and how that is the trial of the hero. Anakin failed to slay his dragon. Really good work.


     
  13. Arliss

    Arliss Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 7, 2005
    This is quite an interesting discussion.
     
  14. Arliss

    Arliss Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Feb 7, 2005
    I might be wrong, everyone sees Star Wars and it's meaning in a different light. However, see the many souls that are in the maze of good and evil as a clue to where the eventual fate lies. I believe they are in a limbo state and that state of being is purgatory.
     
  15. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 23, 2004
    Interesting, Arliss. I was actually thinking that earlier this week.

    Anakin's time in the suit is like Purgatory, or the Suit itself represents Purgatory. Even how the novel describes his senses being surreal and his own thoughts about his own crimes. Anakin makes a conscious realization that this is the punishment for all that he did wrong.

    It is in this blazing moment that you finally understand the trap of the Dark Side, the final cruelty of the Sith -

    Because now your self is all you will ever have.


    He redeems himself, or earns his way out of Purgatory, by giving up the "self" and sacrificing his life for his son.

    Self. The pure definiton of Evil in the Star Wars universe. It is when he releases the self, as does Yoda and Ben, becomes selfless - that he truly joins with the Force, his Father.

     
  16. Vrolokus

    Vrolokus Jedi Youngling star 3

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    May 20, 2002
    Well if you want to talk about Campbell and metaphor, Vader's suit is in some sense a coffin, a tomb. Anakin "dies" (at the foot of Palpatine), Mustafar is the planet-sized funeral pyre in which his body burns (appropriately sized for a demigod, as Anakin is), and he is "buried" in the armor. Years later his son rolls away the stone from the tomb - i.e., removes the helmet - and Anakin is resurrected.

    Or consider Lucas' recurring point that Anakin has lost his humanity, and the metaphor for this is in the flesh - Anakin's flesh is lost bit by bit and replaced with machine parts, just as the goodness in him is lost bit by bit and replaced by evil. What does Anakin come to rely on to survive? His robotic (humanity-less) arm. Which is the only limb that survives Mustafar? The inhuman arm. Luke slices away his fathers artificial limb, and regonizes the shadow in himself by regarding his own prosthetic. (Consider also the coincidental(?) sequence of events: Anakin's mechanical right arm - the first step in his diminished humanity - is hacked off, and Vader rises, looks over his son and master, and slays his master at once. Look at the metaphor of the power of that limb over his behavior! No, I am not saying Anakin was controlled by his mechanical parts - not literally. It's just the imagery of it.) What is cremated on Endor? The mechanical remains, the "evil" parts - the Anakin form is transcendent, it has become eternal.

     
  17. DarthToeJam

    DarthToeJam Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 28, 2002
    Well if you want to talk about Campbell and metaphor, Vader's suit is in some sense a coffin, a tomb. Anakin "dies" (at the foot of Palpatine), Mustafar is the planet-sized funeral pyre in which his body burns (appropriately sized for a demigod, as Anakin is), and he is "buried" in the armor. Years later his son rolls away the stone from the tomb - i.e., removes the helmet - and Anakin is resurrected.

    I like it, V.

    And "Dual Persona" is not dead. It's very much alive. Vader is the dragon, but he is a dragon of Anakin's own making. He's part of what was once a whole person. And the notion that a spark of Anakin remains alive buried inside Vader -- the regretful voice we hear in the novelization -- is very much a part of the theory.

    "Anakin dies [in ROTS]." - G. Lucas
     
  18. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 23, 2004
    Metaphor is nice. It is just that. A metaphor. Anakin is still Vader and Vader is still Anakin - One - thus the Chosen One.

    DTJ, there is no dragon, as approved by Lucas:

    ...there was no dragon. That there was no Vader. That there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.

    That it was all you. Is you.

    Only you.



    So your sig is irrevocably wrong. Anakin IS Vader.

     
  19. GX_

    GX_ Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 16, 2005
    Now this is my opinion....

    Ani never went through the trials.


    His falling, then redemption earned him the right to become a Jedi Master.


    He already showed his compassion when he loved.


    The circle was really complete in the end.
     
  20. Obi-Can

    Obi-Can Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 29, 2002
    Well I hate to say it but the real reason is pretty obvious; Its a particularly non-clever way of bridging the two sagas. You can rationalize this all you want and credit GL with deep metaphors and mythological rational but that is the truth and nothing more.

    But it is fun to read all the ways the fans will twist this to be incredibly clever and have deep spiritual meaning, which GL will gladly take credit for in the commentary.
     
  21. MajorNerd

    MajorNerd Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jun 28, 2004
    Well I hate to say it but the real reason is pretty obvious; Its a particularly non-clever way of bridging the two sagas. You can rationalize this all you want and credit GL with deep metaphors and mythological rational but that is the truth and nothing more.

    But it is fun to read all the ways the fans will twist this to be incredibly clever and have deep spiritual meaning, which GL will gladly take credit for in the commentary.


    exactly, the old ending was fine...the new one is just a cheap way to duct tape the two sagas together...
     
  22. Hudnall

    Hudnall Jedi Youngling star 5

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    Feb 23, 2004
    There is a certain element of truth to that... but hey, what can you do?


    V, the Tomb is one way. Very well said.

    I do think Purgatory is actually rather fitting as well - or a place "not alive but not dead" either. A place where the soul lingers in limbo until it has repented or redeemed for its sins of the world.
     
  23. brooklynapprentice

    brooklynapprentice Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jun 10, 2004
    Or maybe it's all of these things at once? Deep and meaningful if you chose to see it that way, or cheap and gaudy if you're looking for that. Just like Star Wars as a whole, perhaps? A schlocky sci-fi movie will god-awful acting and even worse dialog, or one of the greatest stories every told, certainly on film? I have always been very comfortable with both existing side by side. I think that this is one of the deepest stories every told, and one of the simplest. Lucas is obviously brilliant, and obviously terrible. Who thinks ANYONE could have done a better job than Mark Hamill as Luke? Now who thinks he's a really good actor?

    That's the beauty of Star Wars -- it's so lame that we can all laugh about it, while I'd gladly write a Master's Thesis on this or any number of other topics within Star Wars. ANd as for the fans reading this stuff in -- I think that's fine. Look, the Bible is just a book -- vague, often contradictory, definitely in need of some editing. What makes it beautiful isn't the book itself, but the profound, almost unfathomable effort and study and devotion that has been put into it. Whole bodies of theology based a sentance or short passage. That's Star Wars too.
     
  24. DarthToeJam

    DarthToeJam Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Aug 28, 2002
    Metaphor is nice. It is just that. A metaphor. Anakin is still Vader and Vader is still Anakin

    "It was his identity when he died as Anakin Skywalker." - G. Lucas

    It's not metaphor. Lucas says it. And we SEE it. Anakin comes back as the same guy he was at the time he turned. So all the years he spent as Vader don't count. The good man is back and the evil man is dead -- two personas.

    One - thus the Chosen One.

    Find me ONE quote where Lucas says the word "one" in the term "Chosen One" refers to Anakin and Vader being one person. One quote. Otherwise, "Chosen One" means exactly what it says: that Anakin was chosen by the Force to bring balance -- which he does by killing off two Sith, Sidious and Vader.

    DTJ, there is no dragon, as approved by Lucas

    First, I haven't read the book, so I have now way to determine if the quote you're pulling out is out of context, or artistic license, or something else. Second, Lucas and his minions have often said the only true canon are the films themselves. Third, is it April 2nd? Strange, I can't buy the book yet. If you've read the book you must have gotten it through illegal means. I find it hard to believe someone of such high moral values -- certainly higher than mine, as you often remind me -- would obtain something illegally. Because that would be stealing. And stealing is a sin. I should know, my father is a minister.

    So your sig is irrevocably wrong. Anakin IS Vader.

    Nope. It's still right, according to the words from Lucas' mouth.
     
  25. sithkiller15

    sithkiller15 Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Mar 9, 2005
    i think its yound cuz well it looks better. In the original it was like some fat old guy. i really didnt know who that was at first. making it look like anakin as we know him is seems right.
     
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