Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    <i>I would think that a force ghost would appear as it wanted to appear.
    And Anakin would want to appear as he was before he turned.

    Thats a simple enough explanation for me. </i>

    Makes sense to me. And since Obi Wan wouldn't care about looking young as a ghost and Yoda looks pretty much the same either way, it makes sense. Unless there's a dead Jedi sketch artist Anakin could hire to make up a vision of him at 50 and not all messed up, that's pretty much the only presenatble image he has of himself.
  2. Darthette Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2003
    star 5
    This is creepy. I was thinking of Purgatory also. I even added the word to my bio about five days ago.
  3. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    I don't have the whole book, nor claim to be "sinless." I only know what I've seen.

    It is not out of context. It is Anakin's own thoughts as he is awakened in the suit and realizes he killed Padme. It is based on the script and approved by Lucas himself.

    Lucas and his minions have often said the only true canon are the films themselves.

    Then why don't you listen to the films?

    That NAME no longer has any meaning for ME.

    You have ONLY forgotten.

    Listen. Vader says it. Luke says it. It is right there in canon. ONLY a NAME.

    The only 'canon' evidence you build your whole thesis around is Ben's ROTJ testimony but you completely ignore - "A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW." That's it. That is all it is. A point of view. An angle. A metaphor.

    Furthermore, what is Lucas's exact quote? Because you've posted three different variations of that quote from the DVD commentary - and with three different versions of the same quote, who is who to be taking stuff out of context?


    DTJ: It's not metaphor

    Then why does your sig say "even if it is metaphor"? Can we bet if we can go find where you said it was?

    And newsflash: The novels are considered canon (not gospel) by Lucasfilm. Even moreso than Lucas' own quotes.

  4. Arliss Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2005
    star 4
    I might be wrong, everyone sees Star Wars and it's meaning in a different light. However, see the many souls that are in the maze of good and evil as a clue to where the eventual fate lies. I believe they are in a limbo state and that state of being is purgatory.


    What's funny is I pulled this post off a board for the HBO series, "Carnivale". I thought it might fit a little. I just changed the words "the series" into "Star Wars"
  5. Anakin_Heartbreaker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 24, 2004
    star 4
    Its because he's the chosen one, he can have any form he wants ;)
  6. lenlenlen1 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2005
    star 1
    I think turning Anakins ghost into the young Anakin (Hayden)in the ROTJ DVD was unnescessary, and only put in there to get people hyped about seeing ROTS. Theres no reason for it. If there was why didnt they put Ewan as the younger Obi Wan in as well? If I was Ewan I'd be pissed for being left out. For that matter how about a young yoda!?

    If you were a spirit wouldnt you always want to come back in the form you had in your prime? If so they should all three of them have been young.

    Or maybe the spirits can only come back in the form they had when they died. In that case Anakin should have remained the old version. For that matter he should have looked like Vader!

    Oh, I'm so confused!
  7. Elymos Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2005
    I just want to remind that in Return of the Jedi, when Luke is burning Vader's suit on Endor and the camera is moving upwards we see a light coming out from the dead body.Did his body disappear then? Was it Anakin's spirit? Why it is shown at this specific time? As I can remember this was added in the Special Edition in 1997.

    As for why we now see young Anakin as a ghost and not as he was when he died in EP VI I believe that the answer is obvious. Only jedis can do this and we actually see Anakin as he was before his fall from the jedi order. When he disclaimed the sith order he didn't of course become a jedi again. Like the common ghost tales: The dead people "reappear" as they were when they died. Anakin falls, "dies" as a jedi in EP III.
  8. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5

    Or other common ghost tales: Ghosts decide how and who they want to appear. The key is Who. Each is appearing to Luke. Yoda and Ben want Luke to see them as he knows them, Anakin wants Luke to see his father as the man he was.

  9. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    No one will know the answer to this question until the movie or Lucas, or both, explains it. The commentary on the DVD is not addressing why Anakin is young . What Lucas says can be applied to the original scene because he is speaking in general. When Haydens ghost appears, Lucas stops talking. This has yet to be explained.
  10. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    If I'm not mistaken though, someone says that they can't say everything because it has to do with Episode III.
  11. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    We will get a definitive answer to this once RotS is out and GL sits down and gives a week-long interview! [face_laugh]

    Pablo was sneaky and said that something in RotS adds a subtext to the ghost scene that wasn't there before. So, there should be a direct link.

    If all GL was interested in was to connect the two sagas by making Anakin's ghost to be the youbg Hayden, he would have found a way to age Hayden with makeup and insert that into Anakin's death scene in RotJ. If he can age Ewan, Ian, make young Tarkin semi-resemble old Tarkin, surely he could use some nifty make-up to do that with Hayden to replace Shaw on the DSII in RotJ.

    Also, if a simple visual connection is all GL was after, why not bring back Hayden in his snazzy leathers instead of that unfashionable but traditional Jedi habit?
  12. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    I don't have the whole book, nor claim to be "sinless." I only know what I've seen.

    If you don't have the whole book, you really can't say if its out of context or not. Context requires knowledge of the whole. Or the "One" - as in Chosen ONE. :p

    I'll keep the sinless confession in mind next time our debate turns toward religion.

    It is not out of context. It is Anakin's own thoughts as he is awakened in the suit and realizes he killed Padme.

    Seeing as the Duel Persona theory has always stated that a spark of the good Anakin remains inside Vader, the idea that Anakin's conscious would feel regret about Padme dying is entirely consistent.

    It is based on the script and approved by Lucas himself.

    So was Obi-Wan and Owen being brothers.

    Then why don't you listen to the films?

    That NAME no longer has any meaning for ME.


    That name doesn't have any meaning for Vader, because the Anakin persona isn't in control. That name ("Anakin") has no meaning for ME ("Vader").

    You have ONLY forgotten.

    Hmm, maybe Luke is speaking in metaphor. :p In any regard, Luke is trying to reach out ot the good man he knows still exists trapped inside the monster. The one in purgatory, as you describe it.

    Listen. Vader says it. Luke says it. It is right there in canon. ONLY a NAME.

    "It's the name of your true self. The emperor hasn't driven it from you fully." The "true self" is the good man, the one that is partially driven out -- leaving the Vader (apparently a NOT true self) persona in control. Its right there in canon! You also once again ignore my point that since Vader was created FROM Anakin, he IS Luke's father -- making all the dialogue in line with the DPT.

    The only 'canon' evidence you build your whole thesis around is Ben's ROTJ testimony but you completely ignore - "A CERTAIN POINT OF VIEW." That's it. That is all it is. A point of view. An angle. A metaphor.

    "A certain point of view" doesn't not mean "I was speaking in metaphor." It means he was telling the TRUTH (which Obi-Wan says) but that he is describing something different than the normal terms of life and death as Luke knows it. Obi-Wan has a perspective that includes FACTS that Luke is unaware of. Perspective = point of view. Anakin's good side was consumed and "destroyed." And since Obi-Wan and Yoda consider the switch to be irreversible, then Anakin is for all intents and purposes "dead" "murdered" not coming back. Of course, they're ultimately proven wrong.

    Furthermore, what is Lucas's exact quote?

    His exact quote from the ROTJ DVD in describing why we see Hayden as the ghost is: "Later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he (Anakin) is able to retain his original identity -- it's because of Ob-Wan and Yoda, who learn how to do that -- how to join the Force at will and retain your identity - but was his identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker." - Lucas

    Two identities. Two personas. (note: "persona" doesn't equal "person") One is original and one isn't. The good one, Anakin, "died" in ROTS and is resurrected in ROTJ.


    Still waiting for the "Chosen ONE" quote.

  13. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 5
    No need for lengthy posts folks, it's easy.

    ROTS does explain why Anakin's spirit is young in ROTJ. Because now, you can actually RECOGNIZE him!

  14. darth_vader19 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2005
    i will explain,george released these movies on dvd and changed the ending.and took out that old dude and but hayden in.thats why he is young.
  15. Padme Bra Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 1999
    star 6
    Theres no reason for it. If there was why didnt they put Ewan as the younger Obi Wan in as well? If I was Ewan I'd be pissed for being left out. For that matter how about a young yoda!?


    I don't know, I thought I answered it rather well.

    As for Vader/Anakin disappearing, I prefer to think that he didn't disappear. Would you drag a 100 pound suit and robot parts into the forest and build a funeral pyre for it? He was in the suit and Luke had a Jedi funeral for him.
  16. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    "ROTS does explain why Anakin's spirit is young in ROTJ. Because now, you can actually RECOGNIZE him!"

    Yeah, it was hard making out Hayden in 1983. I recognize him clearly now.

  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    As Lucas has said, Anakin fails his challenge and it will cost him is soul. Anakin's soul dies when he becomes Vader. All that's left is the "demon" that resides in his body. A dragon is what Stover refers to, just as he calls Palpatine "The Shadow."

    Like in Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel, when a person becomes a Vampire, they lose their soul. A demon takes up residence, but is them for all intents and purposes. It isn't until Angel is cursed and later, Spike makes a bargin to regain his soul, that the good men that they once were resurfaces. Anakin's soul doesn't begin to come back, until he sees Luke on Endor. That's when he starts to revert back to his old self. When Vader dies, his physical body dies. His soul moves on and is saved by Ben and Yoda, who want to show Luke that his father made it back. All the way.

    In an early draft of ROTJ, Luke asks Ben if Yoda got to Anakin in time to help him retain his identity. Obi-wan says "Yes, he made it."
  18. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    As Lucas has said, Anakin fails his challenge and it will cost him is soul. Anakin's soul dies when he becomes Vader.

    Soul, persona, identity -- it's all the same. The good man is destroyed, just as Obi-Wan told Luke.
  19. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    So who was the guy that saved Luke's life near the end of RotJ? Please don't tell me it was just Vader doing something to promote himself to emperor, but failed since he got shocked to death.
  20. Gungan_Sith_Lord Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2002
    star 1
    Been a while since I mulled this one over...

    Perhaps they took on a form that Luke would recognize? Obiwan always came to Luke as an old man, and yoda looks pretty much the same. Anakin took the form of a hero and of Lukes father, not of the crippled tyrant.

    Maybe if you disappear, you appear as you did when you disappear, but if you die, you can choose your form? sounds like a raw deal, but possible...

    I don't think, short of re-writing the OT books, we'll ever know...
  21. Bigred80_05 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2005
    i think everybody is overthinking this no offense to anybody but i believe its because.

    1. we've seen more of young anakin then old anakin just him in the suit.
    2. GL might have felt newer fans would identify more with hayden then whoever played him in RotJ i mean besides his voice.

    but this is all just my opinion
  22. THX-1138_biggs Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 3
    Obi-wan and Yoda disappear, which allows them to join the Force and retain a physical form. They help Anakin transcend his body, which was already damaged and achieve a physical form

    Exactly.

    Anakin's force ghost in ROTJ is the GOOD Anakin before he turned EVIL in ROTS (it's a metaphor, quite a good one actually).

    He's the Anakin WE KNOW before he chose to side with Sidious in ROTS. All that is left to know is at what point does Anakin "DIE" and "transforms" into Vader. The answer will be explained in EPIII.

    So who was the guy that saved Luke's life near the end of ROTJ? Please don't tell me it was just Vader doing something to promote himself to emperor, but failed since he got shocked to death.

    It's still Vader, but Luke helped bring back the loving side of Anakin from Vader. You have to understand that Darth Vader is REALLY Luke's father. It's NOT A LIE. But the GOOD side of his father has "DIED". Luke just brings out the compassionate side of Anakin when he's getting fried by Sidious. It's in that act of courage that Vader tosses Sidious down the shaft, and at the same time throwing away his EVIL side, which is VADER.
    When the mask is off, THAT IS ANAKIN. He only looks different because it is his old shell, his aged battle scarred body.

    When he returns as a force ghost at the end, he returns as his GOOD form, the compassionate Anakin that we met in TPM and said good buy to in ROTS.
  23. Boiiinng Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2004
    star 1
    OK, I read through the entire thread, and I heard some people touch on this, but not fully, so here goes. I don't think it has to do with anything drastic like Anakin "dying" as a Jedi when he is 20 years old. I agree with the theory that Anakin has always had both sides of the yin-yang situation, but that they were never in balance until the end. I think that Hayden was used simply to better link the trilogies together, but Lucas just didn't do a better job of making him look older. In terms of visuals, here are my opinions on why Hayden is used as Anakin's ghost and why Alec Guiness and the Yoda puppet remain the same:

    1) Alec Guiness looks like an old Ewan McGregor, no need to change him or Yoda, because the puppet, too, looks like an old and dying Yoda.

    2) Sebastian Shaw does NOT look like an old Hayden Christensen, therefore the need to change is paramount. Imagine Hayden 20 years from now...he is not going to look much different, except for wrinkles and maybe a little thicker face and body.

    3) So, why didn't Lucas change Shaw's old face in the Vader suit to Hayden's face? Because there really is no discernible feature as a burnt, bald, scarred head that causes Shaw to look anything different than Hayden would look as a burnt, bald, scarred head. I'm guessing ILM tried to do something with that, and it ended up looking bad.

    My conclusions:

    Hayden appears in ROTJ as 40 year old Anakin, not 20 year old Anakin. He just doesn't look old enough to be 40 to some people, that's it.

    Now, on a more theoretical level, there are no scars and his hair is intact because I believe that when Jedi "cross-over" their image represents not only choice, as some have concurred when discussing the clothing, but their body form is linked to their genetics. So, ghost Anakin looks like a pure body Anakin, with no battle damage. Even though Yoda states "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter," that does not mean that the crude matter does not have some sort of importance in the overall picture, since as we have learned from the PT that living matter has a special link to the force, creating what I think is an imprint which is retained in ghost form.

    Basically I'm saying if you take Hayden's head, remove all the hair, scar him up and paint him white, he would look pretty close to Shaw's head except thinner, no more no less.


    Whew, now I'm tired.
  24. r8hitman Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    There is no explanation.

    The only explanation that I can think of is that Lucas is totally destroying his movies on purpose so that after he's released SIX OR SEVEN SPECIAL EDITIONS (:rolleyes:).... then he'll go back and release the ORIGINAL versions and it'll be a higher demand for them.


    EDIT: It's either that or he's gone completely cuckoo.

    Because, in all honesty, Hayden has no business in that scene with Alec Guiness.
  25. John_H_Christ Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2005
    I believe this question may forever rest within the previews of one George "Plothole" Lucas.
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