Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    It's Anakin's sperm. His midichlorians travel through his sperm's genetic make-up into padme and thusly ended up in his kids which allowed Luke to use that genetic data to project the father who last created that sperm.

    That's my theory.
  2. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Padme Bra posted on 3/25/05 6:41pm
    Theres no reason for it. If there was why didnt they put Ewan as the younger Obi Wan in as well? If I was Ewan I'd be pissed for being left out. For that matter how about a young yoda!?


    I don't know, I thought I answered it rather well.

    As for Vader/Anakin disappearing, I prefer to think that he didn't disappear. Would you drag a 100 pound suit and robot parts into the forest and build a funeral pyre for it? He was in the suit and Luke had a Jedi funeral for him.

    />

    I prefer this also. It makes Luke's feelings for his father that much more clear. He takes care of his father's actual remains, making their relationship have even more meaning. That he carried his father's remains away from the Death Star shows just how much he loved him./>/>
  3. Luukeskywalker Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    I think that future generations wont give it much thought. Given that these characters (obi, Ani, and Yoda) are physically dead, and these are there spirits, they can basically be any age and there is nothing more unrealistic about someone who appears at one age as a ghost over another age.

    The big debate should be amonst the fans who grew up with ROTJ, as to why it was changed.

    A viewer can assume a number if different logics to have it make sense. And with the issue of spirits and ghosts in any fictional work, there are alot of ways to logically explain such a thing.

    I think at this point, the only real problem lies for the purists, who just hate the change because that is not how it was originally shown. Either you like the change from a filmmaking decision standpoint or you dont. But the logic of the the age of the ghost storywise, should be not a big deal into itself.
  4. Deeysew Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2005
    star 4
    Read my theory. I think I'm right. It may not be in the novel, but the movie should certainly explain it. It makes me excited to think that it'll have a scene discussing Anakin and Padme having sex and therefore, causing their children to retain Anakin's midis as well as his identity at that age. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha....
  5. r8hitman Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 30, 2004
    star 4
    If he's going to keep adding scenes to these movies then eventually they wont even be the same movies.

    Why not just
    LEAVE THE OT ALONE (PLEASE [face_praying]) AND IF YOU DONT LIKE SOOOOOOOOOOO MANY THINGS ABOUT THE OT JUST REMAKE IT!

    Leave the classic films alone for us older Star Wars fans, and you can remake ep.4-6 and add all of that CGI junk and Jar Jar type characters for the younger generations.

    Because if you ask me I'd prefer the OT just like it was originally.

    You dont tamper with classics.

    I used to put StarWars on the same level as Gone With The Wind, Wizard Of Oz, Godfather, Rocky....etc.

    they were classic movies that you just dont tamper with (destroy) so why is George slowly but surely doing it to Star Wars? [face_not_talking]
  6. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    with all the technology in movies today, i wish they could have put hayden's face in the unmasking-aged 25 years.
    please no. I hope they never do that. I think CGI and other computer tricks have already gone too far with presenting "reality." Pretty soon, actors won't even be together when they act. They'll all film separately. And soon they won't even need to have the right clothing on, or even the right hair style -- that will all be done by computer.
    And soon, they won't even use humans to act. They'll just use computers for everything, and we'll live in a world such as that of "THX--1138," or as that of "1984."
    So people will be rendered useless. and Hollywood will be called HAL-lywood. (2001 Space Odyssey reference, if your movie viewing begins with the great stuff being put out by Britney Spears and Mariah Carey).
  7. MystikalMaceWindu Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 3
    At this point, I'm still mixed on the change from Sebastian Shaw to Hayden Christensen. And depending on when you ask me I either like it or I don't.
    On a technical level, I do understand that since Anakin Skywalker basically stopped being Anakin once he became Vader, and also no longer a Jedi, he basically died. And even though he saves his son at the end, he still did not "come back." He couldn't, he already changed into a different person -- there was still good in him, in that one last good act, but that one act couldn't reverse who he had become, and couldn't change him back into the once good person that he was. That's one reading.
    But the other is that, when Vader saved his son, he redeemed himself, and became Anakin once again. Seems like GL has discarded this idea now. But right now, I'm leaning more toward having "old" Anakin's face there at the end because I like having him looking at Luke with "his own eyes," a fatherly figure looking happy and proud at his son, and who his son has become, and looking at his son, whose life he saved, risking his own. It was this "Anakin" that Luke knew, not young Anakin. I'm surprised that Luke doesn't turn to Ben and Yoda and ask, WHO THE HECK IS THAT?!?!" just kidding. But I guess we'll see how Episode III, if it does, that is, tries to explain this.
  8. forever_jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    I think that future generations wont give it much thought. Given that these characters (obi, Ani, and Yoda) are physically dead, and these are there spirits, they can basically be any age and there is nothing more unrealistic about someone who appears at one age as a ghost over another age.

    Actually, the question was not about WHY the change. Though that is a valid debate for the CT forum. Even for a viewer who has never seen Shaw as ghost, there must be an explanation as to why Yoda looks 900-years old, Obi-Wan looks like when he physically died, but not Anakin. Obi-Wan has at least 4 different looks in the saga, TPM padawan, AotC mullet, RotS neat/trim look and the ANH "Ben" look. Of these, the ghost appears as the final old "Ben" look. Anakin also has multiple looks - little Ani, padawan Anakin, RotS Anakin, RotJ Shaw Anakin. Why choose the image that resembles his RotS self for the ghost?

    In RotS, Anakin has his monumental choice - to remain true to Jedi ideals, to be able to let go, to conquer his inner demons and his darkside. Or, to give in, embrace power to influence everything and become a Sith. He makes the wrong choice. But just before his death, he sees the choice that Luke makes, and realizes the choice that he should have made way back. So, perhaps after his death, he wants to appear to his son as the person he was BEFORE he made his wrong choice - looking like what he would have HAD he made the right choice - right down to the symbolism of his clothes.

    But that would mean that as a spirit, he almost refuses to acknowledge the intervening years. That it took him so much time and suffering - his own and others' - to get to that point of enlightenment when he could let go. That is curious!
  9. Boiiinng Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2004
    star 1
    Actually, the question was not about WHY the change. Though that is a valid debate for the CT forum. Even for a viewer who has never seen Shaw as ghost, there must be an explanation as to why Yoda looks 900-years old, Obi-Wan looks like when he physically died, but not Anakin.

    Because Lucas did not put any effort into aging Hayden for the shoot. Hayden didn't even know he was going to be in ROTJ. That shot was from a costume test video. Lucas threw it in with no aging work to it because they didn't have time. The OT wasn't coming out on DVD until after ROTS, but too many people were complaining and whining, so he released it earlier. IMO, Hayden as Anakin's ghost IS 40 years old, he just doesn't look it.
  10. DINVADER99 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 2, 2004
    star 2
    Boiiinng, Shaw didn't even know why he was being shot in the spirit sequence either, I have an old Starlog interview with him and he said that he thought he was just shooting some publicity photos or something, all he was told is to smile and look happy, he was NOT told anything about the fact he was going to be seen as a spirit.
  11. sccrman95 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2004
    star 4
    :rolleyes:Does it really matter? [face_plain]


  12. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    DTJ: I'll keep the sinless confession in mind next time our debate turns toward religion.

    Surely you aren't suggesting that someone must be "sinless," perfect in the eyes of God, to understand the nature of sin or Evil?

    Seeing as the Duel Persona theory has always stated that a spark of the good Anakin remains inside Vader, the idea that Anakin's conscious would feel regret about Padme dying is entirely consistent.

    Not just regret. "There is no Vader."

    So was Obi-Wan and Owen being brothers.

    And this is the most recent, even more recent than the DVDs.

    That name doesn't have any meaning for Vader, because the Anakin persona isn't in control. That name ("Anakin") has no meaning for ME ("Vader"). Hmm, maybe Luke is speaking in metaphor. tongue In any regard, Luke is trying to reach out ot the good man he knows still exists trapped inside the monster.

    It is a name. And it is a metaphor. So which is it? Is it metaphor or not? Yes, a metaphor - something we've known for 30 years. But Anakin is Vader.

    The "true self" is the good man, the one that is partially driven out -- leaving the Vader (apparently a NOT true self) persona in control.

    In metaphor - or even moreso - in the illusion. The ROTS novel now solidifies that it is only that - an illusion. "There is no Vader. Only Anakin Skywalker."

    And since Obi-Wan and Yoda consider the switch to be irreversible, then Anakin is for all intents and purposes "dead" "murdered" not coming back. Of course, they're ultimately proven wrong.

    As are you. Because ANY OTHER CHARACTER's point of view is really secondary to what we know - that Anakin is still in control, he is not destroyed, and the duality is a prison he places himself in - only to free himself when he fulfills the Prophecy as the Chosen One, neither Jedi nor Sith.

    "The good man who was your father was destroyed" is different than "The man was destroyed." The good man was lost, but the man is still alive just as he says "he (your father) is more machine now than man." Still alive - just evil. Vader is evil Anakin, but he is still Anakin.

    Still waiting for the "Chosen ONE" quote.

    Which you know there isn't one, but if you fool yourself into believing that "One" is coincidental to the SW mythology; it isn't I whom is mistaken.

    Two identities. Two personas. (note: "persona" doesn't equal "person") One is original and one isn't. The good one, Anakin, "died" in ROTS and is resurrected in ROTJ.

    Are we talking metaphor or real? Because Vader does represent the evil side of Anakin, as Anakin represents the good side of the Chosen One - but they are two sides to One whole.

    Don't get caught up in what Campbell refers to as the "illusion."

    Sinister: A dragon is what Stover refers to, just as he calls Palpatine "The Shadow."

    "There is no dragon. Only Anakin Skywalker."

    Stover uses very clear text - in a moment of realization, Anakin's conscious shatters the dual form and he sees only himself. This is actually a very important step towards his ultimate redemption - when he realizes it is not too late to fulfill his destiny.

    THX: Anakin's force ghost in ROTJ is the GOOD Anakin before he turned EVIL in ROTS (it's a metaphor, quite a good one actually).

    It's a brilliant metaphor. One thousands of years old, the fundamental struggle of Good and Evil represented in a human form.

    So, perhaps after his death, he wants to appear to his son as the person he was BEFORE he made his wrong choice - looking like what he would have HAD he made the right choice - right down to the symbolism of his clothes.

    But that would mean that as a spirit, he almost refuses to acknowledge the intervening years. That it took him so much time and suffering - his own and others' - to get to that point of enlightenment when he could let go.


    Very well said. The intervening years being almost like "limbo."

    Back on Monday - and we'll delve in "the illusion" as Joseph Campbell refers
  13. dnation Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    why would anakin be da same type of spirt in ROTS and ROTJ? thier opposite movies ROTS is every goin down and ROTJ is everything turning around for the good ROTS is dark side wins ROJT is good side win...... person who though of this really shuld be slapped.....
  14. Darthette Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2003
    star 5
    why would anakin be da same type of spirt in ROTS and ROTJ? thier opposite movies ROTS is every goin down and ROTJ is everything turning around for the good ROTS is dark side wins ROJT is good side win...... person who though of this really shuld be slapped.....

    [face_laugh] [face_laugh]
  15. JediLaura01 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2001
    star 3
    I heard in the OT commentary on ROTJ, that Lucas made the decision b/c if you turn to the darkside, you are "dying." Therefore if you come back to the lightside before you die, your body retains the same appearence as it did when you turned.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    Lucas didn't put any effort in aging Anakin, because he didn't want to age him. When a Jedi turns, they cannot become a Force ghost. When they turn back, they can. And Anakin died, for all intents and purposes, when he turned. So what we see is Anakin before he died, the first time. When his soul died, not his body. Obi-wan and Yoda didn't turn to the Dark Side, so they remain as they were when they died. Anakin died on Mustafar or on Courscant, his body just went on until he died for real.
  17. patico74 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 3, 2003
    star 3
    i dont like it the youn anni at end , it isnt fair he gets redeemed cause he has choices to make, i see the reasons(vader kills ani so ani dies then and there). but its not fair to others.
    oh and can any one tell me how to get this poster of lucas with partman behind him and entire crew in picture, yoda, mark hamill, chewi. i really want this poster.
  18. DarthToeJam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    Surely you aren't suggesting that someone must be "sinless," perfect in the eyes of God, to understand the nature of sin or Evil?

    I'm suggesting hypocrites shouldn't act so piously.

    Not just regret. "There is no Vader."

    It seems to me (again, I haven't read the illegally obtained novel) that a remorseful Anakin is putting the blame for the creation of Vader on himself. "I created this monster. I screwed up. It's my fault." But that doesn't mean he's still controlling Vader.

    It is a name. And it is a metaphor. So which is it? Is it metaphor or not? Yes, a metaphor - something we've known for 30 years. But Anakin is Vader.

    If turning to the dark side means just getting new business cards, then it really isn't that big of deal is it. If NOTHING else, turning to the dark side causes a PHYSICAL manifestation -- yellow eyes. Something PHYSICAL has happened to Anakin BEYOND just ACTING evil.

    The ROTS novel now solidifies that it is only that - an illusion. "There is no Vader. Only Anakin Skywalker."

    Or so goes the tragic musings of a man trapped in a prison of his own making -- a slave to a monster he brought into being.

    ANY OTHER CHARACTER's point of view is really secondary to what we know - that Anakin is still in control, he is not destroyed, and the duality is a prison he places himself in

    If Vader is just Anakin with another name, where's the duality? The prison is Vader.

    The good man was lost, but the man is still alive just as he says "he (your father) is more machine now than man." Still alive - just evil. Vader is evil Anakin, but he is still Anakin.

    You just said the good man was lost. If Vader is still Anakin, who's lost? So is Vader "evil Anakin" or just Anakin? You've said two differnt things. I've always said Vader was created FROM Anakin -- he IS evil Anakin. But if you strip the good from a man, what remains is not the same man you started with. Evil Anakin is different than regular Anakin - hence two personas.

    if you fool yourself into believing that "One" is coincidental to the SW mythology; it isn't I whom is mistaken.

    Which is double-talk for "I'm really just making stuff up."

    Are we talking metaphor or real? Because Vader does represent the evil side of Anakin, as Anakin represents the good side of the Chosen One - but they are two sides to One whole.

    He does more that represent. Turning to the dark side is a real thing in the GFFA. Vader IS the evil side of Anakin fueled by the dark side. The good side is not in control -- in a purgatory, as you said, until Luke helps him regain control in ROTJ.

    Stover uses very clear text - in a moment of realization, Anakin's conscious shatters the dual form and he sees only himself. This is actually a very important step towards his ultimate redemption - when he realizes it is not too late to fulfill his destiny.

    Again, I haven't read the illegal book.

    Back on Monday - and we'll delve in "the illusion" as Joseph Campbell refers to because this concept creates the confusion.

    Goodie.

    DS: "So what we see is Anakin before he died, the first time. When his soul died, not his body. Obi-wan and Yoda didn't turn to the Dark Side, so they remain as they were when they died. Anakin died on Mustafar or on Courscant, his body just went on until he died for real."

    EXACTLY!
  19. Darthmalius Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 29, 2005
    star 2
    personaly I think Lucas just wanted to have Hayden at the end because he is the Anakan that we all really get to know.

    I think if he does that thought that he should also replaces his face in the suit.
  20. forever_jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    So what we see is Anakin before he died, the first time. When his soul died, not his body. Obi-wan and Yoda didn't turn to the Dark Side, so they remain as they were when they died. Anakin died on Mustafar or on Courscant, his body just went on until he died for real.

    When did "Anakin" die EXACTLY? When he chose to kill Dooku? Mace? Temple Jedi? Separatists? Padme? Or when he became limbless on Mustafar? Or going further back, when he killed Tuskens? Anakin, according to GL himself, was making wrong choices for a pretty long time - starting from AotC. His Light Side "soul" had been dying way before Mustafar. Truthfully, long before he acquired the long hair, which is how he appears as a ghost.

    I think we see his ghost not as the Anakin before he died, but as the "perfect" Jedi Anakin that he should have chosen to be, the image that he wanted his son to see at the end, the image of him that Obi-Wan and Yoda want to remember him by.
  21. DarthToeJam Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    When did "Anakin" die EXACTLY?

    According to Obi-Wan, when Anakin turned to the dark side. "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." There is a moment in ROTS where Anakin chooses to join the Sith and gets his new name. We know by the time he gets to Mustafar he has the yellow eyes. I would assume, then, that Anakin "dies" when he renounces the Jedi and becomes a Sith. The fight at the end only confirms to Obi-Wan that the good Anakin ain't coming back -- that Anakin has been destroyed.
  22. THX-1138_biggs Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 3
    I just realized something from this thread.

    newbies are bashers, why do you need to complain about the fact that Anakin looks older or younger without the mask or as a force ghost. It's been explained TONS of times why he looks the way he does when the mask is off and when he's a ghost, because of reasons that I even motioned in an earlier post on this thread.

    Lucas did not ruin the movies by putting Hayden at the end. In fact he gave the story more depth by doing that so that morons that go see these movies, expecting popcorn flicks, can actually THINK for a change.
  23. JEDIFRIGHT Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 1
    A great discussion. I have not read every post in this thread but I scanned a few on each page. What I wanted to say regarding Anakin's youthful appearance at the end of ROTJ has been said by others. MY questions is why did GL not add Qui Gon to the famous last shot of the entire saga when he added Hayden as Anakin? And don't give me some quote from GL saying that the entire saga is about these three characters because while I understand what GL may mean by that, we must admit that Qui Gon is rather essential to the story as HE is the one that discovers Anakin, "adopts" Anakin from Shmi, presents him to the council, disobeys the council threatening that he will train Anakin w/o their permission, and if all of that is not convincing enough the man's final wish is that Obi Won train ANAKIN!

    I think Qui has gotten shortchanged. Unless of course Qui does not appear to Luke because Luke wouldn't know him from Adam. That's plausible but I am not entirely convinced. The scene would have provided much more closure had Qui been there.
  24. Obi-Can Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Good gracious now we have to add Qui-Gon to the Force-ghost scene. Well heck why not Padme and C3PO after all his mind was wiped that's like dieing isnt it?

    It's a ridiculous silly change that's their to bridge the two sagas in a brainless way, as someone said earlier as artistic as duct tape and also to please the Hayden fans. Well also maybe to sell more DVD's since GL had to come up with enough changes that warranted everyone spending more money on the new version.

    He should have left the OT alone, if all these spoilers come true a young Anakin will be the least thing to worry about as far as plot holes between the PT and OT is concerned.


  25. forever_jedi Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    According to Obi-Wan, when Anakin turned to the dark side. "He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed." There is a moment in ROTS where Anakin chooses to join the Sith and gets his new name.

    Are you refering to the moment he kills Mace Windu? But his act of killing Dooku is not very Jedi-like either - and he knows that in his heart, though he is still mostly Anakin. From my understanding of spoilers and the novel, while killing Mace is the point of no return, the death of the "light side" in Anakin is a gradual process and takes place right from Dooku's death, if not earlier, during AotC. So is "ghost" Anakin then pre Mace-death or pre-Dooku death?

    I do agree that Obi-Wan is simplifying matters both to himself and for Luke. For him, the Anakin that he knew and loved was the heroic Clone Wars Anakin, who faught at his side. Perhaps he wants to see that Anakin in the Force, and Anakin himself wants to show his son the heroic Anakin before RotS even begins.

    MY questions is why did GL not add Qui Gon to the famous last shot of the entire saga when he added Hayden as Anakin?

    Because Qui-Gon did not now how to appear physically to anyone. Only Obi-Wan and Yoda learnt this. They helped Anakin retain his spirit, in order to show his son. They didn't feel the necessity to do the same with Qui-Gon, who really was not involved in Luke Skywalker's life in any way.
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