Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Darth Sinister said:
-Saved Obi-wan's life several times, even when he messed up a couple of times.

Yes he's brave and tries to protect those he loves. Yet he also puts those loved ones in danger over and over again by his selfish and impulsive acts. He almost gets both himself and Obi-Wan killed and screws up their chance to kill Dooku by giving in to anger and hate. He constantly puts Padme in danger by again giving in to his selfishishness and anger. He took her to a lawless planeet to try and save Shmi, which resulted in putting one's life in danger repeatedly and not saving the other one. He says he saved Obi-Wan several times, but from what the movie shows probably he's the one that put Obi-Wan in life threatening situations to begin with. Anyway, being brave and protecting those things you need or crave (namely Shmi, Padme and Obi-Wan) does not make him good.

Stalin had a family that he adored, yet he ordered husbands and wives and children killed by the millions. Love is a selfish act if it's not tempered with morals and the ability to do the right thing despite that attachment.

-He won many battles during the Clone Wars.

Not in the movies, but hardly equates to being a good person. Anakin loves to fight and show off and have adventure. This is very much a selfish joy for him. Obi-Wan avoids fighting (the negotiator), though he seems to love to fight as well. He understands that taking lives should be avoided at all costs.

-He tried to rescue Shmi.

Tries, but fails and then massacres a whole tribe, including the children. However, attempting to save someone you want and need does not make you good.

-He did save Padme.

Nope, never did. He instead is the one that puts her life in danger over and over again. Takes her to Tattoine so he can massacre a tribe, then lets her go to the planet where all the seperatists are including Dooku who want to kill her. He's either very stupid, or selfish enough to not to care that he's putting Padme's life in grave danger to try and save yet another person he needs in his life. However, it is funny that he didn't want to go after Obi-Wan at first at all, but then when Padme suggests it seems to think oh okay that sounds life fun. He really is a strange animal.

-He tried to capture Zam Wessel.

Not sure how that shows he's a good person? He is a jedi and looking for a assassin who is trying to kill Padme (who he's trying to impress at the time). But yet again it's Obi-Wan that saves the day.

Those are good deeds in my book.

Not in mine. I think you are mistaking deeds that are performed under the hospices of seemingly good intentions as making him a good person. However, as I stated before everything Anakin does is for selfish reasons, to further his own agenda in some way. He cares for Padme, Shmi and to a point Obi-Wan, but not enough to curb his own impulsive behavior. He never contacts Shmi in the ten years he's been gone until he starts having dreams (not once did he worry about her before that?), he puts Padmes life in danger over and over again and even convinces her to marry him knowing that it's going to ruin their lives and he has to think about whether saving Obi-Wan is worth it and then puts his life in danger in order to give in to his anger and hatred by rushing Dooku.

Anakin is not a hero, even as a teen under the tutelege of the jedi he seems to struggle with doing the right thing and never quite manages it. It seems to be his nature to be bad, and do bad things. He at least attempts to be good, their is an internal struggle going on. But my point is that the only time the good in him wins is when he's Darth Vader and he chooses Luke over power, before that when he's Anakin he always chooses the selfish path.

As far as killing Sidious to save Luke. This is not a selfless act. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself for the good of the galaxy. He didn't do it to save Luke's life. He did it because he wanted to show Luke that a true Jedi must be willing to die for something greater than

 

Good post up there. Your right, Anakin shouldn't get a pat on the back for doing what a Jedi is supposed to do anyway. Especially if he's often seen failing at that. Any heroics are half showing off and half chasing Padme. It's a shame that his desire to follow Padme around had to be the reason why he attempted to go rescue Obi Wan.

"Excuse me but there aren't any mirrors shown in the meditation chamber."

What is shown in the meditation chamber that you can identify?

"Anakin HATES himself and nobody who hated themselves would ever look at their own reflection in the mirror."

Are you serious? It is widely known that many people that are unhappy with themselves spend quite a bit of time in front of the mirror. It is self abuse. The obese, the Anerexic, the precieved ugly,the scared, the pregnant, all the way down to the pimple-faced. People that hate themselves like to face themselves to self loath. Vader seeing himself fuels his hatred and contempt for everything. To imply that Vader would turn away or scurry from his own reflection goes against his character. Of course he's seen himself since then.

 

Lucas is saying that the burnt man is the pathetic version of Anakin Skywalker.

Burns have nothing to do with it, he was killing younglings before he got the burns . And as for what Lucas is saying - well he tends to change his mind .

The Anakin ghost seen at the end now, is the man who he was once before

Why portray him as the man he once was? it's the man at the end who has learned to give up on greed and a lust for power, the man he once was was greedy and lustful for power.

Didn't look evil to me. He looks like his former self, freed of the Dark Side, which ages you physically.

How does that explain why he looks 23 ?

Lucas did plan to get TESB and ROTJ made, no matter what happened with ANH

He had some vague hopes of a sequel but they were not like the sequels we know, Splinter was written as a possible sequel because it could be done low budget and without Solo cos Ford had not been signed for sequels . Lucas hadn't even decided that vader was Luke's father until several drafts into ESB .



g

 

She volunteered to go to Tatooine to keep him out of trouble with the Council. And she was the one who said that she was going to Geonosis. She put herself in danger. The only thing he did was not stop her. And it was this same lawless planet that served them well a decade earlier.

It doesn't. That's a new one on me. I guess Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, the police and fire department aren't good guys either. Since, you know, they save lives and what not.

Anakin did have good morals, they just got twisted by Palpatine.

There's nothing that says that a Jedi has to avoid killing at all cost. What they do have to avoid is killing out of revenge and hate. And just cause we didn't see Anakin's victories on screen, doesn't mean that they didn't happen. There's a reason that Anakin's well loved as a hero.

Then what makes you good, if doing good acts are wrong? Just having a noble heart alone isn't enough. But putting that noble heart to good use helps. The point still stands that he was not evil when he went to save his mother. Regardless of his personal reasons, he was still trying to do good. I guess Luke didn't do any good by rescuing Han from Jabba, since he wanted him at his side.

Second assassination attempt.

She put herself in danger by serving as bait, he just went along with it as did Obi-wan.

First off, she was the one who volunteered to go to Tatooine. He was going to leave her on Naboo, with only the Naboo security to watch over her. Second, he was going to obey orders this time. She was the one who was determined to go off to Geonosis, with or without him. He smiled because she gave him an excuse to go. She was putting herself in danger, not Anakin.

 

Knight_Mical posted:
Stalin had a family that he adored, yet he ordered husbands and wives and children killed by the millions. Love is a selfish act if it's not tempered with morals and the ability to do the right thing despite that attachment.

What in the heck? Stalin's wife had an"accident" the day after the 2 of them argued, wherein she died. He hated his father who was an abusive drunk. Stalin was an evil dude through and through. Were you raised in the USSR? With their censored history?

 

Knight_Mical posted:
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As far as killing Sidious to save Luke. This is not a selfless act. Obi-Wan sacrificed himself for the good of the galaxy. He didn't do it to save Luke's life. He did it because he wanted to show Luke that a true Jedi must be willing to die for something greater than himself. He also knew that when Anakin found out who Luke was that it would cause conflict in him.

Luke didn't just sacrifice himself, he sacrificed the person he loved most in the world Leia for the greater good. he fully expected them both to die.

Anakin didn't kill Sidious for the greater good, he did it to save his son. It resulted in good, but it wasn't perpetrated for that reason.


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Lucas disagrees with you.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221

"he did it to save his son."-Knight_Mical

"destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son." -Lucas

Where is Lucas disagreeing with Mical's statements?

 

The selfless act of compassion. Lucas is saying that Anakin saves his son, but he does it out of compassion. He's no longer thinking of himself, but of others.

That's selflessness.

 

That's pretty technical. It sounds like they're saying the same thing. I mean, just because Anakin was always trying to save Padme doesn't mean it wasn't selfish because he's showing compassion for another person. In a lot of cases, we would choose are friends and family over strangers. Is this selfish in a way, yet still a form of compassion?

Anyway, when, where, why, and how does Anakin turn to the darkside in which he "dies" or stops being the "good man" he previously was?

 

I had to respond to this one:

darth-sinister:You turn evil, your spirit doesn't age, but your body does. If you stay good, your body ages natural and your spirit does as well.

What kind of message is that??? I would think poor Obi-wan and Yoda would look over at the "hunk" that is the spirit of Anakin Skywalker in the new version of RotJ and they probably would wonder why THEY didn't join the dark side!!!! They followed the Light side of the Force their entire lives and they end up with the aged, tired bodies they died in. Meanwhile, Anakin spends more than half his life committing dark deeds and ends up with the young, handsome body of his prime, not in the older body he died in. Where in the galaxy is the fairness in THAT????

I truly think Lucas didn't think this whole Hayden as Force ghost thing through very well.

 

He did not, and that is evident. He liked Hayden and wanted to poke his toungue out at the fans by desecrating ROTJ. He knew exzactly what he was doing and NEVER planned on explaining anything. He just threw some words on the floor because someone brought it up in a webdoc or whatever on moviephone. Shaw was removed for NO good reason.

People have been trying to reason this for pages upon pages and we still have nothing.

 

As far as I'm concerned it replaces an Anakin that -never existed- with one that did, one that we got to know over the course of three pictures (or rather two and three quarters). Yeah, it's primarily to tie the trilogies together and a way for George to shoot the finger at certain members of the audience, but in this case I think its hilarious. Any way you slice it its Anakin; its not a Greedo-shoots-first type of revision.

 

I think its interesting that Luke tells "Im a Jedi, like my father before me" and Anakin the Hayden one said similar "Im a Jedi..." While Anakin the Shaw one, never actually said it. So GL is fixing it up as a closure for Anakin the Hayden one is with the other two. They are still spirits.

Meanwhile, Luke sees Anakin before he turned, with his hair intact, etc. GL already in those days, was trying to show how Anakin looked before he died, regardless how he looked when he came back from the Darkside in front of Luke.

Whatever it is, I think its meant to be a closure, whether one likes it or not.

 

Koto-Ogami;
As far as I'm concerned it replaces an Anakin that -never existed- with one that did,

Yes, he did. Shaw has been the Force ghost of Anakin for over 20 years!!! Since before Hayden Christiansen was even born or was at least in diapers. Shaw is STILL in the film during the unmasking scene, so the Shaw Anakin did and does exist.

that we got to know over the course of three pictures (or rather two and three quarters).

Hayden wasn't in TPM at all.

Yeah, it's primarily to tie the trilogies together and a way for George to shoot the finger at certain members of the audience, but in this case I think its hilarious. Any way you slice it its Anakin; its not a Greedo-shoots-first type of revision.

But WHY are the Force ghosts in RotJ???? They are NOT there for the audience's benefit, as I've pointed out a couple of times. They are there for LUKE. They are seen by LUKE. They should look as they did when Luke knew them. Yoda and Obi-wan DO look as they did when Luke knew them. Anakin also USED to look as Luke knew him in the unmasking scene in RotJ, where he met and lost his father. Then, Luke sees through the Shaw Force ghost that the father he met and lost has been redeemed and is now in Jedi Heaven with Yoda and Obi-wan. The new, Hayden Anakin makes no sense. How is Luke supposed to know that the ghost who looks younger than he is, is his father?

 

I always disagreed with that change. My main problem with it is that it basically says that Anakin was not redeemed when he destroyed the Emperor. If he was, then he should have been redeemed as is. Heck, his Force ghost should have been all burned up and crippled, but I can understand why they didn't go with that aspect. However, I still think it should have stayed as the older Anakin..what would have been if he had not lost his way. Just my .02, but I think's GLs take was not so much a well-though out idea as more just trying to put yet another continuity bug between ROTS and the OT.

 

ChildofWinds, that's not exactly what I mean. The Shaw Spirit version of Anakin never existed because Anakin never grew to become that, Anakin was never an older man with short hair parted to one side. That Anakin never happened.

I can understand the idea that "Its the Anakin that could have been", but in all honesty I'd rather see the Anakin I've known come back. I guess its debatable as to which resonates more.

As for Hayden not being in TPM, that's just being a bit techninal. "Young Anakin" was in TPM, AOTC, and most of RotS.

 

"GLs take was not so much a well-though out idea as more just trying to put yet another continuity bug between ROTS and the OT."

Exzactly. It aids the story in no manner and makes no sense. Its a visual que for the sake of color and not substance. If Lucas said that he changed it because it was a visual way to connect the out of sync trilogies, I could respect that. It's all this making stuff up as if he had something really in mind that insults me. He made Greedo shoot first not because Solo couldn't be redeemed otherwise, but because he was going wild on the remix button. Instead of just admitting that he thought it was cool, and thought the fans would have thought it cool, he makes up some redemption mumbo jumbo that not only contradicts Solo's actions two seconds after the scene but contradicts the Anakin redemption theme. He can change whatever he wants, just don't act like were stupid. Just say you were having fun in the editing room, George. Theres nothing deep or story related behind this stuff.

He even changed the ESB dialog between Vader and Palpatine as if for the retarded to understand. Like we never saw the original STAR WARS. Instead of it looking like Vader may be hiding something from Palpatine, it now looks like Vader himself is oblivious and Palpatine is reading him a bed-time story about the rebel who destroyed the deathstar.

Hurry up November 8th. My Birthday gift comes with audio commentary.

 

Any way you slice it its Anakin; its not a Greedo-shoots-first type of revision.

Although the revised Greedo scene was ascetically cringe inducing, I could stomach it because ultimately it didn?t present any severe change to the narrative. The Hayden ghost, however, I loathe to the point that I don?t plan on watching the current DVD version of Jedi again. It?s a reckless change that?s hindered all the more by Lucas? non-existent explanation of the force ghost concept.

For years I was content to believe that a Jedi gained the ghost ability upon consciously acknowledging that their time to become one with the force has arrived. Revenge of the Sith debunks this simple but logical theory with a brilliant revelation that amounts to ?Qui-Gon learned a new trick.?

In place of any validation for a young force ghost, Revenge of the Sith succeeds in its ability to offer not much more than a muddled plot point when it comes to this whole situation.

think's GLs take was not so much a well-though out idea as more just trying to put yet another continuity bug between ROTS and the OT.

The frustrating thing is that Shaw wasn?t a continuity error.

 

^^^^^^
Poetry.

 

This is the story as he's always known it. Vader was this pathetic person. It's there in the end of ROTS, throughout ANH, TESB and ROTJ

yeah but at the end of ROJ he's a good person . you were claiming that the 'burnt man' is the pathetic version of anakin, but the burns are irrelevant since he was evil before that .


The story is how do we get him back to the man that he once was. He was a man who was greedy and lusted for power, but he was also a man who wanted to be a good person.

Why get him back to the man he once was ? It's the man at the end of ROJ that counts, he's the one who has lived a life and experienced things fully. It's silly to try and negate his life with this visual metaphor of using Christensen , it even goes against Lucas's own words:

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end

all that ^ was done by Anakin by the end of ROJ, having a young anakin is just ridiculous cos it implies that all of the above was unimportant, and it isn't unimportant .
The anakin at the end of ROJ is the one that matters cos he's the one that lived the life .
Why get him back to the man who has yet to learn all that ?

You turn evil, your spirit doesn't age, but your body does

Well I can't see any sense in that .

And the other problem for me is that as I see it the ghosts are from Luke's POV , he sees them and for some 23 yr. old kid to suddenly appear is narratively a complete mess . He's just seen the face of his father and it didn't look like Christensen .

g

 

Anakin's being selfish because it's all about what he wants and not what Padme wants. To be selfish, you are doing it solely for yourself and not for others. To be selfless, you have to be doing what others want of you. Without thinking about what you will get out of this. Anakin's life is pre-dominatley run by his emotions, which is dangerous for a Jedi.

When is after his injuries and when Padme has died.

Where is on Courscant.

Why is because he lets the Dark Side consume and destroy the good within him.

How ties into the why.

First, who said that life was fair? Second, all they care about is that Anakin's back and a good person again. He got to fulfill his destiny and in Obi-wan's eyes, finally redeemed himself for his mistake.

He's probably been thinking about this since for quite some time. He's been immersed in dealing with the Force ghost issue and once he had Hayden as Anakin, he made his decision to do this. Remember, we were told that Lucas still had ideas for an "Ultimate Edition" of the OT, back in 1999. He was still planning to make changes and that might have been one of them.

He's talking about the character of Anakin Skywalker in terms of story, versus two different actors.

Then he should look like a crispy critter, since that's the Anakin Skywalker that Luke knew. Not as Hayden Christensen and not as Sebastain Shaw with hair, and is riddled with scares and missing limbs. And where is this "Jedi Heaven" no sense. There's the Netherworld.

 

Sin, you realize this is like beating your head against the wall, right? There are some bound and determined to make mountains out of molehills in order justify their feeling that a artist changing his creation has somehow affected their daily lives... and that's just sad.

 

What in the heck? Stalin's wife had an"accident" the day after the 2 of them argued, wherein she died. He hated his father who was an abusive drunk. Stalin was an evil dude through and through. Were you raised in the USSR? With their censored history?

Well not sure what history you are reading from, but the fact remains that Stalin was happily married for many years and was close to his entire family. His first wife died of natural causes. I believe u are referring to his 2nd wife, who committed suicide. : See excerpt below from a biography on Stalin by George Simmonds pub. 1989: In June 1904 he married Yekaterina Svanidze, a simple, devout peasant girl who was devoted to him. The marriage, evidently a happy one, was typical of the more conventional unions that Georgian radicals, unlike their Russian counterparts, usually contracted. His wife died on April 10, 1907, leaving him a son, Yakov (Jacob).

However, him killing his wife would make him equivilent to Anakin which was might point to begin with. He loved both of his wives according to official history up until the 2nd one killed herself and was devoted to his children. However, he did become quite paranoid in his later years and only trusted his daughters, which makes him very similar to Anakin in many ways. After all he killed anyone and everyone he felt was a threat in order to retain his power, except his children.

 

K_M, you've obviously missed the point of the entire saga.

 

Koto-Ogami:
I can understand the idea that "Its the Anakin that could have been", but in all honesty I'd rather see the Anakin I've known come back.

But the Anakin you've "known" committed many evil deeds. The Anakin you've "known" shouldn't come back exactly as he left when 23 or so years have gone by. At the very least, Lucas should have aged Hayden to the 46 or so year old man he was at the end of RotJ, not the young kid he was 23 years earlier. He is NO LONGER that 23 year old. The passage of time should have been shown in the Force ghost.

ezekiel22x:
The Hayden ghost, however, I loathe to the point that I don?t plan on watching the current DVD version of Jedi again. It?s a reckless change that?s hindered all the more by Lucas? non-existent explanation of the force ghost concept. For years I was content to believe that a Jedi gained the ghost ability upon consciously acknowledging that their time to become one with the force has arrived. Revenge of the Sith debunks this simple but logical theory with a brilliant revelation that amounts to ?Qui-Gon learned a new trick.? In place of any validation for a young force ghost, Revenge of the Sith succeeds in its ability to offer not much more than a muddled plot point when it comes to this whole situation.

Yes. Unfortunately, I'm in complete agreement about this. Good post!

gezvader28:
The anakin at the end of ROJ is the one that matters cos he's the one that lived the life . Why get him back to the man who has yet to learn all that ?

Very good point! And I agree with you about that having the 23 year old Hayden ghost appear is "narratively a complete mess". Good word choice there! Yes, Shaw was the face of the father he met, and Shaw should be the face of the Force ghost at the end.

darth-sinister:
NeoBaggins posted:
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Anyway, when, where, why, and how does Anakin turn to the darkside in which he "dies" or stops being the "good man" he previously was?
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When is after his injuries and when Padme has died.

So you're saying that Anakin is still a "good man" after killing the Tuskin women and children; killing the Jedi younglings and the separatists; kneeling and pledging to join Palpatine as a darksider; choking Padme; and dueling his best friend and Jedi Master????????

Sorry DS, but I completely disagree with you. Getting injured; putting on the Vader suit; and knowing that Padme was dead all happened long after Anakin became an evil darksider.

First, who said that life was fair?

I think it's a horrible "lesson" for young people: "Do as many bad things as you want in your life, because in the end, it doesn't matter how terrible you have been, as long as you're "cool" , you're going to end up even better than those saps who are good."

He's probably been thinking about this since for quite some time. He's been immersed in dealing with the Force ghost issue

Well, if he's been "immersed" in this Force ghost issue, as you put it, he certainly dropped the ball! His "explanation" at the end of RotS with Yoda's words about Qui-gon were very, very, very lame. As I keep saying, it worked MUCH better to just have all good Jedi become One with the Force after they died. That made so much more sense than this silly idea that Qui-gon suddenly learned a new trick that no one else in the whole history of the Jedi have ever managed to learn before him. Really, really, really DUMB!!!!! It seriously diminishes the story, in my opinion.

Then he should look like a crispy critter, since that's the Anakin Skywalker that Luke knew.

No, he should be the "glorified", cleaned up version of that crispy critter. You'll notice that Yoda doesn't look sick anymore as he did when he died either.

Are you implying that Luke's a Jedi dumbass? That he can't figure out that his father looked like this, years ago?

 

Rhondero; Dont thinks so, perhaps you have. Don't blame me for Lucas' words. He's the one that brought the enitre redemption into question. Anyway, redemption is in the eyes of the beholder, in this beholder's eyes, Anakin is not redeemed. Anyone who kills children has not atoned for his sins by saving his own child. Now if he wants to sacrifice himself or his son for a greater good, then maybe, but thats not what's shown.

He kills Sidious to save his son, sorry not good enough for me. Having children, and being the unforgiving type, if someone killed my child nothing he could ever do would be enough. Anakin is evil for all eternity and should burn in hell.