Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
  2. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    Is the explantion I gave or what was already there? Such as what Luke said without even "seeing" his father? Speak your mind dude (within the rules of this website :D)
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    I go by that interview conducted and by the DVD commentary and what he said in the Making Of book. By the films, it's shown that Anakin goes back to who he was in appearence.

    It shows that if you stray from the path of goodness, your spirit will not age. It and your body go in two different directions.

    And yet, they acted inhumane.

    Good is a point of view, in some people's eyes.

    My point is that Luke realizes it's his father. Old or young.

    A lot of the aging is a result of the Dark Side. Anakin's 45, yet looks to be about 75. Palpatine looks to be a 120, yet according to all known information, was 63 in ROTS.


    He could've, but didn't.


    Yoda: "I cannot teach him. The boy has no patience."

    Yoda: "Ready? What you know of ready? For eight hundred years, have I trained Jedi. My own counsel I keep, on who is to be trained. This one, a long time have I watched, as he looked away to the future. To the horizion. Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing. Excitment, heh. Adventure, heh. A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless."

    Luke was showing himself to be unfit to be a Jedi, even before the training began.

    Qui-gon taught Obi-wan and Yoda, they taught it to him, since Vader clearly never saw it happen before. It's all there.

    He didn't have much choice in it. The will of the Force.

    46 looking 76. Just as Palpatine was said to be 63, but looking like he was 120.
  4. DARTHCLANDESTINE Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2005
    star 3
    My point is that Luke realizes it's his father. Old or young.

    I think its Luke point, that what he knows and has been told, that a young Jedi turned into Vader - courtesy Obi Wan. The main thing, I think anyway, is that Luke was determined to show that, that young Jedi didn't fully turn. So in a sincere way, Luke sees the young Jedi as the ghost. He already seen what the Darkside has done to him (in the unmasking).

    But the point is (and as Sinister kindly says), for Luke no matter, who did all the bad deeds in the Vader mask, it is still his father. Luke didn't have to see an corrupted face to know the man speaking was his father, he (Anakin) always was. "You were right about me, tell your sister, you were right".




  5. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    No, the last time he was a Jedi was when he saved his son's life and destroyed the Emperor. That's one of the meanings of the title: RETURN OF THE JEDI.
    ------------------------

    All of a sudden he's a jedi again? I disagree, he cant just suddenly shrug off the sith, the suit, the vader persona and instantly become a jedi again. He simply see's his son near death and cant let the last piece of his former self die. He realises he loves his son and kills the emporer through wanting to save that love. Not becasue all of a sudden he thinks "Oh, i'll become a jedi again" In saving his son he fulfils the prophersy, whether this was his intention or not. I'm sure it was not a concious decision to do so, nor was he thinking of his redemtion or saving his soul. He simply wanted to save his sons life.

    I've always read the title "Return of the Jedi" to be about Luke. Though he is not a Jedi Knight at the start of the movie, he believes he is. Chewbacca tells Han Luke is now a Jedi Knight when they are held at Jubba's Palace. But Yoda tells Luke he will only be a Jedi Knight when he confronts Vader again. Whether he has the title of Knight or not, he IS still a Jedi.

    "Luke, when gone am i, the last of the Jedi will you be"

    Return of the Jedi, the title, means Lukes return to finish what he started. He was defeated by Vader in ESB and now he has returned to finish the Job he started.
  6. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    "I go by that interview conducted and by the DVD commentary and what he said in the Making Of book. By the films, it's shown that Anakin goes back to who he was in appearence."

    Really now? Interesting. So the interveiw, the commentary, and the book, pieces together for you what the film is showing- And what the film is showing, as you have stated, is Anakin as he was before. So your saying that the scene is not self-explanatory as to why he appearse this way, and I agree. It does not make sense.

    For a change this aparent (Hayden being the ghost), it should not be left to elements outside of the movie to explain it.
  7. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Noone who has had their bodies on fire for 5 minutes would have any chance of surviving, not even Anakin but somehow he has survived and yes, he would have literally died before he can be put into the suit.

    The monitor screen Vader used to contact General Veers.
    Those medical machines that slapped on Vader's helmet.
    A chair.
    and some computer keyboards.


    Wrong. It is the very definition of Vader's character because he wants to purge himself of every memory of his "Anakin Skywalker" days and for him to look himself in the mirror will only remind him of who he once was and as shown in ROTJ, Vader is deadset in wanting to forget his real identity by every means necessary...hence, "That name no longer has any meaning for me".
  8. Sanctuary_Moon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2004
    star 3
    Well, I've always read the title as a double meaning - not only does Luke become a Jedi, but the good in Anakin returns as well. Most SW titles have more than one meaning actually.

    Yoda and Ben didn't believe Anakin could be turned back from the Dark Side. This is one of the most touching things about ROTJ - only Luke believed in the small speck of good in his father. Ultimately, Luke was right and his mentors were wrong.
  9. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5
    "Wrong. It is the very definition of Vader's character because he wants to purge himself of every memory of his "Anakin Skywalker" days and for him to look himself in the mirror will only remind him of who he once was and as shown in ROTJ, Vader is deadset in wanting to forget his real identity by every means necessary...hence, "That name no longer has any meaning for me"."

    *sigh* I can't believe I'm responding to this. Must be for the hilarious response that is garanteed.

    Well, why would Vader not want to remember his "REAL IDENTITY" when he was born when Anakin died? By peoples logic here, Vader is a completely different person. Why would he have to supress Anakin if an Anakin does not exist?

  10. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    I agree with you dude, they all thought Anakin was gone, and Luke was the only one that felt the good in him. But then again, he was the only one that COULD feel the good in him. After Vader learnt his son was alive it was this and this alone that made him weaken and alowed the conflict to begin. Obi Wan and Yoda were right in a sence, Vader would never have been redeamed were it not for Luke.

    I like the Idea that ROTJ also means the return of Anakin, and i agree with you in part, the RETURN part is when he appears as a ghost at the end (for me anyway) as i dont see the evil, twisted and disfigured Vader/Anakin as a redeamed jedi, just a redeamed soul. He returns as a jedi when he appears as a ghost, and i believe lucas made a good decision to show him as the man he was when he was last good, when he was last Anakin and when he was last a Jedi.
  11. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If you had seen ROTS already, then you would know why Vader doesn't want to remember his real identity.
  12. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    I understand his need to forget. But it's a long shot when someone says he hasn't seen himself since ROTS. That I believe he HAS seen himself since then is speculation based on the stories events, but it was said he hadn't seen himself as if it were a known fact.
  13. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Return of the Jedi, the title, means Lukes return to finish what he started. He was defeated by Vader in ESB and now he has returned to finish the Job he started.

    Lucas has said it's also about Anakin's return to the light, the Jedi. The title has a double meaning.
  14. Knight_Mical Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 25, 2004
    star 1
    Its the typical filling in the blank to support a theory that is not supported by what's in the movies.

    Anakin and Vader are one in the same, as evidenced by Anakin rushing to Padme after he's killed the younglings, crying as he kills the Seperatists and asking about Padme when he's wearing the suit. If Vader is no longer Anakin why is he still so passionate and concerned for Padme and his former life. Why does he know that Luke is his son? This is such an outlandish theory that is unsupported by the movies that it's funny.

    The only reason Anakin is even redeemed or stops the horror, which ever theory George wants to go with, is because Anakin is part of Vader. Any other version invalidates his redemption.

    If Vader killed Sidious then Anakin isn't redeemed, if Anakin killed Sidious then he's part of Vader. You can't pick and choose which person gets credit for the good and bad deeds. George's commentary in TPM and AOTC was that the PT was about Anakin making choices. Anakin chooses to become a sith, kill children, kill his wife and torture his daughter and attempt to kill or turn Luke. If you contend that its Vader choosing to do those things then you have to also concede that it's Vader that chooses to kill Sidious and then it's Vader not Anakin that does the good deed and deserves redemption and should be the Force ghost - not the young one who chose to do evil, but the older one who finally chose to do good.

    Return of the Jedi, no matter which quote you take from Lucas -- because there are several contradictory ones, refers to the return of the Jedi order and Luke becoming a true Jedi for the first time. As Lucas also said, the OT was about Luke and the PT was about Anakin.
  15. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Return of the Jedi, no matter which quote you take from Lucas -- because there are several contradictory ones, refers to the return of the Jedi order and Luke becoming a true Jedi for the first time. As Lucas also said, the OT was about Luke and the PT was about Anakin.
    -----------


    I agree,

    "The Jedi are all but extinct, their fire has gone out of the Universe. You my friend ae all that remains of their religon"

    Once Yoda died, Luke was all there was left. He faught Vader, defeated him and as he says.

    "You've failed your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me" to which Palps replies . . "So be it, Jedi"

    This is the Return of the Jedi.

    I like the way it also referres to anakin and i support it, but the anakin that comes back as a spirit, not when Vader kills Palps. I refuse to except that just because he made a decision to save his son he is instantly a Jedi again. He gave his life for love, fulfilled the prophersy and died, he then returned to how he looked when he was last a Jedi.

    This is also the "Return of the Jedi" and why it should be Hayden there, not Shaw. He's returned from the darkside to the Jedi he once was, returned to being anakin.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    You misunderstand. I'm saying that those elements explained why the change was made. People asked these questions and Lucas gave the answers. They just support what's already shown in the movies, that Anakin becomes good again.

    There's no reason for there to be an explaintion in the film. Period, end of story.
  17. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    Oh, ok. Very well then. It's settled.
  18. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    I feel it will never be settled. Everybodys entitled to their oppinion and neither one is right or wrong, unless actually confirmed by GL himself. But i feel this is lucas's greatest achievment, leaving enough little vagueness in his movies that they will always keep fans talking and descussing for years to come. As Ben says,

    "You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on your own point of view"

    That way, everyone can be right . . . I guess. :0)
  19. ProphesiedChosenOne1 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 21, 2005
    star 2
    We never got to see Anakin when he was old. He became Darth Vader when he was 23. He was still a young man. Lucas probably put Sebastain Shaw in their to let the fans speculate what he looked liked when he was a jedi. But now, we know what he looks like when he was a Jedi. It was one on the few mistakes Lucas made bridging the trilogies.
  20. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    Similar to the movie "Me, Myself, and Irene" where Hank mentioned that he was saddened that his fiancee left him as much as his alter ego Charlie, Darth Vader had the same feelings for Padme as Anakin does.

    Because the Emperor told him.

    Even when Vader is obssessed with finding Luke, he wasn't entirely sure that the Death Star destroyer pilot is his son on the count that he spent 20 years thinking his child died with Padme.

    Wrong. If Vader kills Sidious, then Vader himself dies in the process which frees Anakin from his Dark Side prison because Vader cannot survive on his own without Sidious. It's not about which person gets credit for the good and bad deeds, it's about Anakin being responsible for creating Darth Vader in the first place and for allowing Sidious to trick him into becoming a Sith.
  21. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Knight_Mical posted:
    --------------------------------
    Why does he know that Luke is his son?
    -----------------------------


    Because the Emperor told him.

    Even when Vader is obssessed with finding Luke, he wasn't entirely sure that the Death Star destroyer pilot is his son on the count that he spent 20 years thinking his child died with Padme.
    ____________________________

    I dont agree, Vader is obsesed with finding the rebel who destroeyed the Death Star, True, but he knows it's his son, it's implied.

    "Thats it, the Rebels are there, and i'm sure Skywalker is with them" . . Vader says this at the start of the movie. Unless Skywalker is an extreamly common name, i believe he knows who Luke is.
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He knows that there's a pilot named Skywalker. That doesn't mean that he's his son, now does it? Open a phone book. Look how many people have the same last name. Look at how many have the same first name. Look at how many have the same name as you do.

    He's not. He's being greedy and selfish. She's his possession, not his companion.
  23. DRHJ9 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2003
    star 4
    For any people who don't believe that Anakin and Vader are one and the same, read the Lucas interview in Starlog. He says that Anakin believed the Jedi were evil at the end. He said that he believed that what he was doing was right. It was not untill he talked to Padme that he thought about what he was doing. George Lucas did not say that Vader killed the younglings, or that Vader was talking to Padme on Mustafaar. He says that Anakin was making his own choices. Lucas was also asked about inconsistancies in the films, which Lucas replied that the films are metaphors.

    If Lucas believed that Anakin and Vader were diferent people, or spiritual beings, why not say so? Why not say Vader killed the younglings, or that Vader was talking to Padme? If anyone does not believe me, read the Starlog interview. It is the latest issue I believe, or the one before. Lucas only refers to Anakin and not Vader when doing these evil things, like killing the younglings.
  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    He knows that there's a pilot named Skywalker. That doesn't mean that he's his son, now does it? Open a phone book. Look how many people have the same last name. Look at how many have the same first name. Look at how many have the same name as you do.


    He also says, during the DS trench run, "the force is strong with this one".
    Oh, and by the way, he rescued princess Leia from the DS with ya know, what's his name,
    Obi Wan Kenobi. Luke and Ben arrived to the DS in the Millineum Falcon, you know,
    the ship which matched the markings of the ship which blasted out of Mos Eisley
    suspected to be harboring the droids they were looking for at Uncle Owen
    and Aunt Beru that contained the plans to the DS.

    There is an operating assumption here that Vader knowing Padme was dead
    equates to Vader knowing his progeny is dead. That is never, ever established.

    How dumb do you have to be? Of course he knows by ESB just whom Luke is. Why else
    obsess with finding him and offering to overthrow the emporer together.
    Vader tells Luke whom he is, he doesn't ask Luke if he is his father.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    There is an operating assumption here that Vader knowing Padme was dead
    equates to Vader knowing his progeny is dead. That is never, ever established.


    Padme died and was made to appear to be still pregnant. Thus Vader thought his child was dead. If he knew about his child, he wouldn't have waited so long to find and convert him.

    He also says, during the DS trench run, "the force is strong with this one".

    There's any number of potential Force users.

    Oh, and by the way, he rescued princess Leia from the DS with ya know, what's his name,
    Obi Wan Kenobi. Luke and Ben arrived to the DS in the Millineum Falcon, you know,
    the ship which matched the markings of the ship which blasted out of Mos Eisley
    suspected to be harboring the droids they were looking for at Uncle Owen
    and Aunt Beru that contained the plans to the DS.


    He only knew that Obi-wan was there with the crew of the Millienum Falcon. And Vader didn't know where the Stormtroopers traced the droids to. And even if he did, that doesn't automatically make it his kid. They could've named him Skywalker after Shmi.

    How dumb do you have to be?

    Anakin: "I am a slow learner."

    Of course he knows by ESB just whom Luke is. Why else
    obsess with finding him and offering to overthrow the emporer together. Vader tells Luke whom he is, he doesn't ask Luke if he is his father.


    "At this point, Vader?s plan really, now that he knows he?s his son[hl], is to convince him to come with him."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.


    Lucas said this at the end of the duel on the commentary. He's not sure at first, which is part of the reason he's obsessed with finding Luke. Once he knows, he makes his full plan to turn the boy and kill Palpatine.
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