Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    darth-sinister:

    Padme died and was made to appear to be still pregnant. Thus Vader thought his child was dead. If he knew about his child, he wouldn't have waited so long to find and convert him.

    Exactly. 'We' - besides those who don't think 'Padme dead' = 'Child dead' - are saying that he didn't know about him until after the Battle of Yavin.....


    There's any number of potential Force users.

    'Any number' who would happen to have Skywalker as a surname?


    He only knew that Obi-Wan was there with the crew of the Millenium Falcon.

    As if Obi-Wan being there wasn't enough?

    And Vader didn't know where the Stormtroopers traced the droids to.

    True. But he could have found out 'where' after the B.O.Y...

    And even if he did, that doesn't automatically make it his kid. They could've named him Skywalker after Shmi.

    Well, that's original. Better than "he was a Rebel who was infatuated with the Legend of Anakin Skywalker"........

    Lucas said this at the end of the duel on the commentary.

    That Lucas says this quote at this point, doesn't neccessarily mean that it's at this point that Vader is sure. What 'tips' Vader off? Luke's hair and eyes?

    He's not sure at first, which is part of the reason he's obsessed with finding Luke.

    Couldn't Vader be 'obsessed' because he knows that this Rebel pilot, named Skywalker, is his supposedly dead child?

    Once he knows, he makes his full plan to turn the boy and kill Palpatine.

    You mean that plan wasn't there when he spoke with the Emperor via hologram earlier?

    Again, what makes Vader 'sure' on Bespin? Luke's 'looks'?

  2. TheCRZA Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Oh, and by the way, he rescued princess Leia from the DS with ya know, what's his name,
    Obi Wan Kenobi. Luke and Ben arrived to the DS in the Millineum Falcon, you know,
    the ship which matched the markings of the ship which blasted out of Mos Eisley
    suspected to be harboring the droids they were looking for at Uncle Owen
    and Aunt Beru that contained the plans to the DS.

    He only knew that Obi-wan was there with the crew of the Millienum Falcon. And Vader didn't know where the Stormtroopers traced the droids to. And even if he did, that doesn't automatically make it his kid. They could've named him Skywalker after Shmi.


    Vader was in charge of securing the plans from the Rebels. When he's informed
    that the Falcon is landing aboard the Death Star, he seems to comprehend what's
    occurred in with the droids/Falcon connection because he orders a scanning
    crew aboard.
  3. Darth_Turkey Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    He also says, during the DS trench run, "the force is strong with this one".
    Oh, and by the way, he rescued princess Leia from the DS with ya know, what's his name,
    Obi Wan Kenobi. Luke and Ben arrived to the DS in the Millineum Falcon, you know,
    the ship which matched the markings of the ship which blasted out of Mos Eisley
    suspected to be harboring the droids they were looking for at Uncle Owen
    and Aunt Beru that contained the plans to the DS.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Exactly, Vader, at the start of ESB, is obsessed with finding young Skywalker. This is so he can confirm what he already suspects, that Skywalker is his Son. Then he has a little chat with the Emporer where he tells Vader Luke Skywalker is the son of Anakin.
    I believe here Vader plays dumb (as he wants to turn Luke and overthrow the emporer together) and suggests turning Luke to become a powerful ally. Palps agree's and asks "can it be done" Now, this is where the sith begin to fall apart. They both know there can be only 2 of them, yet they both want to turn Luke, for their own personal gain. Vader wanting to rule to galaxy with his son, as he had previously wanted to with Padame, and the Emporer wanting to replace Vader with a younger, fitter apprentice.
    Vader . . . knowing previously that Obi-wan turns up at the death Star, around the same time the plans have gone missing, the princess is rescued, then a young, skilled, force sensative pilot by the name of Skywalker turns up and destroys the Death Star . . has already put 2 and 2 together (as any no-brained individule could have) and worked out this boy is his son by the start of ESB. He simply wants to meet him to have this confirmed, which is why he sets the trap on Bespin to catch him.

    The question i wonder is, had Vader been able to freeze Luke in carbonite, would he have taken him to the Emporer or would he taken Luke himself and tried to turn him? I think the latter.
  4. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    "I just love it when I stop threads cold."

    :p
  5. gezvader28 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    Darth sinister wrote:

    Who says that the women haven't done it? The children will grow up to do that. We see in ANH that the Tuskens hadn't changed. "The sins of the father will forever be visited upon their sons."

    :confused:
    you're actually justifying the killing of children with that ?
    The humans in the saga have done even worse things than the tuskens, should all their children be killed too ?
    And Lucas certainly doesn't agree with you , he says on the commentary that the slaughter was a step into the darkside for anakin .

    He knows that there's a pilot named Skywalker. That doesn't mean that he's his son, now does it? Open a phone book. Look how many people have the same last name. Look at how many have the same first name. Look at how many have the same name as you do.

    But there's a hell of a lot more than just the same name -
    He's spent 3 years looking for Luke , they found out who he is, therefore must know where he came from , the Lars his step brother etc. , that he'd hooked up with Obi , I mean it's not rocket science, even if he's not sure he must suspect that he's his son .

    g


  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that in Anakin's mind, this why he killed the Tuskens. If one is guility, all are guility and must therefore be punished for their crimes. Even if they have yet to commit those crimes.

    And who says that Owen Lars didn't name him after Shmi Skywalker's maiden name?
  7. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4


    darth-sinister:

    And who says that Owen Lars didn't name him after Shmi Skywalker's maiden name?


    Sinister, WHY would Owen do this?

    Is Vader to think, "I have a 'long-lost' brother"?
  8. NeoBaggins Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    When did Vader see Padme's dead still-looking-pregnant body?
  9. EwokThatCried Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    In the Holonet Gazette, front page.
  10. Darth_Davi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 29, 2005
    star 4
    getting back to topic....could it be as simple as the deceased Jedi get to choose what age they appear?
  11. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4


    NeoBaggins:

    When did Vader see Padme's dead still-looking-pregnant body?


    He didn't.

    However, he did believe what Sidious told him: that he, Vader, killed Padme.

    And that being so, and her still being pregnant the last time he saw her - on Mustafar - then it does stand to reason - from Vader's own point of view - that the child (or children) died with her.

    - TOSCHISTATION
  12. NeoBaggins Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    Yeah, that makes Sense. Although, i'm sure as Vader got older he accepted that he had basically been tricked into his position. He basically admits in the OT that he is a slave to Palpatine and it's "too late" for him. At some point and time, Vader had to question many of the things Palpatine told him- Padme's death most likely being one of them. When Skywalker surfaced, Vader had more than enough reasons to be curious. He'd probably persued him even without the Skywalker name. Vader searched his feelings and knew it to be true or whatever. The only problem I see with it is the unecessary butchering of the conversation between Vader and Palpatine. It was clear yet mysterious that Vader knew something the Emperor didn't. Now we have the Emperor schooling Vader and Vader asking dumb questions. Then, in ROTJ, it goes back to normal and Palpatine is wondering why he didn't sense Luke's presense. Put the Pen down and step away from the notebook, slowly.
  13. gezvader28 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4

    Sinister wrote:
    I'm not justifying it. I'm just saying that in Anakin's mind, this why he killed the Tuskens. If one is guility, all are guility and must therefore be punished for their crimes. Even if they have yet to commit those crimes


    Is Anakin right to take that attitude ? I certainly don't think so and I don't think anakin believes he's right either , nor does Lucas .
    If anakin has that attitude then it's like racism, an excuse for genocide, that's not a sign of a good person.
    Remember we were talking about why the post-aotc Anakin ghost we see should be considered good since it's that one who's already committed the slaughter.
    It sounded like you were offering justifications for his actions, Anakin didn't give those reasons, his reasons were all to do with how much he hated them, he didn't say "the children will grow up and do the same" .
    So if you're not justifying it what point are you making?


    And who says that Owen Lars didn't name him after Shmi Skywalker's maiden name?

    Huh?
    I don't see how that's relevant . Why would Vader assume that ? If Vader has been trying to discover the identity of this pilot he will have discovered various things, a little investigation will discover when Luke came to the Lars, then there's all the other stuff - the Lars raising this child, Obi , Luke's strength in the force , the name etc. etc . Vader will at least be wondering if this person could be his son by the beginning of ESB.

    g




  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    No, Vader would think that if this wasn't his son, then it's his nephew. He doesn't know for sure until Palpatine tells him to search his feelings.

    The point I'm making is that in Anakin's mind, he is punishing everyone who took his mother from him. This is why he killed all the Tusken Raiders in that camp. All of them were guility, either by association or directly. It's not really racism as it's just a case of a man taking vengence to it's ultimate conclusion. With the Jedi Younglings it's the same thing. They're being trained to be Jedi, that makes them guilty by association.

    The point is that Vader has no proof that this is his son and not some Force sensitive child, who bares the last name that he once did. This is why Palpatine says what he says and why Lucas says that "now that he knows that this is his son..." He didn't know it before, now he does.

    Actually, Sidious sensed Luke's encounter with Yoda, which caused the disturbence in the Force. Just as Obi-wan and Qui-gon sensed a disturbence in TPM, Palpatine senses it in TESB. I think they're sensing a shift in destiny, rather than a person. Palpatine had never sensed Luke, he sensed the meeting with Yoda.
  15. honour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2003
    star 3
    darth_sinister: I don't recall Qui-Gon sensing a disturbance in the Force in The Phantom Menace? When? I do recall Obi-Wan sensing it, however.

    EDIT: Oh, do you mean on Tatooine?
  16. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    darth-sinister:

    No, Vader would think that if this wasn't his son, then it's his nephew. He doesn't know for sure until Palpatine tells him to search his feelings.


    Since Anakin didn't have any 'blood' siblings, how would the kid be Anakin Skywalker's nephew?

    Why would Owen Lars give a kid the surname Skywalker, his step-mother's maiden name? Unless, of course, the kid WAS a Skywalker, perhaps?


    As far as Vader 'searching his feelings', he may have had ample opportunity to do just that ever since 'escaping' from the Battle of Yavin...........

    You do realise, Sinister, that it's possible that Vader was pulling Sidious's leg......


    The point is that Vader has no proof that this is his son and not some Force sensitive child, who bares the last name that he once did.

    'Searching his feelings' or not, indeed what was keeping Vader from thinking that this Rebel was just 'some Force sensitive child', not his and Padme's?

    If all he had to do was just 'search his feelings', don't you think he would have done it by that time? As if he needed the Emperor to tell him to do that.........


    This is why Palpatine says what he says and why Lucas says that "now that he knows that this is his son..." He didn't know it before, now he does.


    Palpatine says what he says, because he 'reads the news'. His 'certainty' is really no better than Vader's.

    Again, in that quote from Lucas, the "now" part doesn't literally mean 'now - as in the story'.


    Though what you're suggesting is certainly a possibility.

    After all, maybe Lucas felt that, when he first made the OT, it wasn't very 'clear' how Vader came to know that he had a son out there. Remember, originally, Anakin was supposed to have 'left' without knowing of his wife's pregnancy.........


    But there would seem to be a problem with Sidious being 'certain' that Luke Skywalker is Anakin's son, and Vader not being certain, given that Vader had already been 'hunting' for this Skywalker and thus knew 'of' his existance at least as long as the Emperor.
  17. gezvader28 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    The point I'm making is that in Anakin's mind, he is punishing everyone who took his mother from him. This is why he killed all the Tusken Raiders in that camp. All of them were guility, either by association or directly. It's not really racism as it's just a case of a man taking vengence to it's ultimate conclusion. With the Jedi Younglings it's the same thing. They're being trained to be Jedi, that makes them guilty by association.

    Yeah and that's wrong . very wrong , it was darkside stuff . So how can this help the idea of having this person represent the 'ultimate good anakin' ?


    The point is that Vader has no proof that this is his son and not some Force sensitive child, who bares the last name that he once did.

    Yeah but there's a lot more than just the same name , there's all the other stuff . He hasn't encountered anyone this powerful in 20 years, the kid was raised by his step-brother on the fram where his mother lived, Obi knew the kid , all these things would make him wonder. And if he's been searching for 3 years he's bound to have found out more . Of course he knows . And if he isn't certain he certainly suspects . If Luke can feel the paternal relationship then Vader can feel it too .

    the third quote wasn't me btw.

    g



  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    He has a half brother.

    Perhaps Owen Lars wanted to honor his step mother.

    Or maybe not. There's a reason Lucas changed the dialogue for TESB. From his commentary, it seems that Vader isn't even sure if this is his son until his talk with Palpatine. It could be a ruse, but then Lucas' commentary says that Vader now knows that this is his son. He wasn't sure before.

    He's not exactly the brightest apple in the bunch. Never has been.

    He probably didn't think Luke was a threat until he felt the disturbence.

    Palpatine might've figured it out sooner. He does say that he has no doubt that it's his son. Palpatine has access to the Temple now. He could've scoured it's secrets and learn of the Prophecy. In the novelization he says that he knew about it long ago. So now we have this boy would could be a threat the same way Vader was supposed to be.

    Because Anakin wasn't evil when he did that. He was just an angry person who gave into his emotions.

    Luke had to search his feelings, just as Vader did before hand.

    And who is to say that Owen and Beru couldn't pop out a kid that could be very strong in the Force?
  19. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    darth-sinister:

    He has a half brother.

    He does? No, Owen was his STEP-brother.

    Unless you're suggesting that Vader's supposed to think that his mother had more children that he didn't know about.....


    Perhaps Owen Lars wanted to honor his step mother.

    Perhaps.
    But it's highly improbable that Owen would do this with one of his own offspring.


    Or maybe not. There's a reason Lucas changed the dialogue for TESB.

    Yes, and I think the reason was that he felt that the OT didn't really make it clear how Vader suddenly knows by TESB. Especially to casual movie goers. And given that the EU doesn't interest a casual fan, that wouldn't suffice to explain how Vader knows. Hence, Vader's 'understanding' now being shown in the film.

    From his commentary, it seems that Vader isn't even sure if this is his son until his talk with Palpatine. It could be a ruse, but then Lucas' commentary says that Vader now knows that this is his son. He wasn't sure before.

    Well, I think that the 'ruse' element works better. The other way, while making it clearer how Vader knows the truth, nonetheless introduces some 'improbable' elements into the mix, which I've mentioned above. And these elements weren't there before.


    He's not exactly the brightest apple in the bunch. Never has been.

    This seems to be the case now, but did you get that sense when you first saw the OT? I sure didn't.

    Anyway, I think that Vader's 'grasp' of the truth of the matter was more emotionally-based, than intellectual.


    He probably didn't think Luke was a threat until he felt the disturbance.

    Yes, that works better. But then, after feeling the disturbance, he not only sees him as a threat, he is CERTAIN that it's Anakin's son. What am I missing here? Do you see what I mean? Sidious, who has no 'emotional' investment either way, is certain that it's Anakin's son, but Vader, who has every reason to be emotionally invested, isn't sure?


    Palpatine might've figured it out sooner. He does say that he has no doubt that it's his son. Palpatine has access to the Temple now. He could've scoured it's secrets and learn of the Prophecy.

    I'm sure that Vader could do this as well. AFAICT, he wasn't 'banned' from the Temple.

    In the novelization he says that he knew about it long ago.

    Really? That's in the ESB novel? I can understand why that's not in the film. It would've raised more questions.


    Luke had to search his feelings, just as Vader did before hand.

    O.K.

    And who is to say that Owen and Beru couldn't pop out a kid that could be very strong in the Force?

    Too many unneccessary elements involved. 'Occam's Razor' come to mind.

  20. TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4

    darth-sinister, are you talking about Sids knowing about THE PROPHECY, 'along time ago', being mentioned in the novel?

    I didn't think that was what you meant first, because we're talking about Luke and when he first 'announces' himself in the Force (Dagobah). If you mean the Prophecy, it seems as though you're tying it in with Luke's birth or more accurately, his 'Force-announcement'.
  21. gezvader28 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Because Anakin wasn't evil when he did that. He was just an angry person who gave into his emotions.

    He slaughtered an entire village ! including women and children.

    You said that the image of the post aotc anakin is the version of his 'ultimate good self' and it just doesn't fit . Even Lucas says that what he was darkside stuff.

    Luke had to search his feelings, just as Vader did before hand.

    Yeah and he's had plenty of clues and time to cause him to search his feelings.

    And who is to say that Owen and Beru couldn't pop out a kid that could be very strong in the Force?

    c'mon, I've said it enough times - there are many other factors - the name, Ben's connection with the kid etc.
    And Vader would've checked to see if the kid was theirs.

    He's not exactly the brightest apple in the bunch. Never has been.

    So he's thick and he imagines all sorts of scenarios where the Lars had a kid and bizzarely named him Skywalker and ignores all other clues.
    ^That's not really helping the story , it just makes Vader seem thick . And I never thought he was thick .
    Why is it whenever a problem in the story comes up we're required to imagine the characters are stupid?



    g



  22. Odyssey_Miles Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 1, 2003
    star 1
    What makes no sense is why some people feel that everything should be explained in a film. If that was the case, it wouldn't be art.
    When a director offers commentary, they're doing us a favor by simply giving us a bit of their thought process.
    We still have the option of deciding for ourselves what we choose to believe and understand.

    It's also funny how people keep going back and forth about logic. None of this is logical. It's frickin' Star Wars!!! Swords made out of light energy, force lightning, ships and people bouncing back and forth to inhabitable planets all over the place....it's all fantasy. Instead of bi*ching about how the change makes no sense, or how it's not explained in Episode III, or how it's sacrilege to change the OT, why not try to see things from the artist's point of view/perspective in order to at least understand why it was done.

    As for me, I like to believe that force ghosts are not even real manifestations of a person. I like to think they are merely images presented by that person in the form in which they choose. Obviously, Obi-Wan appears before Luke in a familiar state because that is the way Luke remembers him. Anakin as we know, appears as his young self. Perhaps he wanted his son to see him in a way in which he could relate to. Anakin is still the same good person on the inside, so seeing the younger Anakin is no reason for Luke to look up and say "murderer!"

    Perhaps he wanted to show his son; "see, this is what I looked like when I was a Jedi just like you." To me, that's wonderful, and someone 20 years from now seeing it for the first time won't even care at all. In fact, they'll probably love it all the more so because of the emotional payoff of seeing such a great character finally redeemed. At the end of the day, these films are pieces of art for us to enjoy. Things don't always have to be this way or that way.
  23. DRHJ9 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2003
    star 4
    Sinister:

    He has a half brother.

    No he doesn't.

    Perhaps Owen Lars wanted to honor his step mother.

    You are reaching here. There is no reason to do this, since she probably took the Lars name when she married. It would make more sense to give a child a middle name to honor a loved one.

    And who is to say that Owen and Beru couldn't pop out a kid that could be very strong in the Force?

    And that kid being watched and trained by Obi-Wan? I think it would be pretty easy for Vader to draw the conclusion that his offspring survived. There would be no reason for him to think that Owen would name his child Skywalker, then have him go with Obi-Wan.


  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    No, you're right. I wasn't quite paying attention and got the two terms mixed up.

    Vader wouldn't know that.

    So then what are we arguing here?

    But they're there now, which suggests that this is how Lucas wishes to view it.

    Well, if he was at all bright, he wouldn't be evil, now would he? ;)

    Sidious is not emotional like Vader. That's been Vader's weakness. He is too emotional and as such, he's blind to the obvious. Vader's not one for clear and conscise thinking. His policy is act now and think about it later. Sidious is the brains of this operation. So he would logically come to the conclusion quicker than Vader.

    No, but who says that he wanted to go through the Temple at all? Or who is to say that Palpatine did not delete the file from the Archives memory?

    The ROTS novelization, I mean.

    I mean that Vader had to tell him to search his feelings, just as Palpatine had to tell him to search his.

    Not with a character who's known to "shoot first and ask que
  25. SithStarSlayer Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    Sooo are we any closer to finding an explanation for Ana-Vader's younger looking Force Ghost? [face_thinking]

    Or has this become the "ESB Vader is a complete moron, discussion thread?":oops:

    Not that I don't enjoy reading well thought out arguments...:D
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