Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Flaming combined with your innate ability to systematically spin various one-off morsels to whatever "clever" advantage (even if you contradict your own self) you imagine - up to your usual debating style I see, DTJ.

    I guess this is going to be pointless - as the spoiler could not be more clear - crystal clear - smack you in the face and I can't be anything but clear; but your so lost in focusing on the Black and White sides and you can't see how they represent one soul, person, man.

  2. brooklynapprentice Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 10, 2004
    star 3
    "Because Qui-Gon did not know how to appear physically to anyone."

    Lucas should add Qui-Gon's voice to ROTJ. "Hey -- I'm here too! Yipee!"
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    First, to all those who say it's a plothole, wait until the ROTS DVD comes out and listen to what the man has to say about his story, before you make snap judgements.

    Second, no flaming in here.

    Third, there's need to see Qui-gon in ROTJ. He, unlike Anakin, cannot achieve a phsyical form. Obi-wan and Yoda helped Anakin to do that, Qui-gon didn't get that from the Force. He just got the ability to retain his identity, but couldn't retain a physical form.

    Fourth, in some cultures, it's believed that when a person has no soul, they have no conscious. No remorse. They can kill easily and despite knowing that it's wrong, don't care. In the case of Anakin, he loses his soul when he pledges his loyalty to Palpatine and embraces the Dark Side. Attacking Mace, and killing Dooku and the Tuskens in cold blood is pretty bad. But he has not allowed himself to embrace the Dark Side. In the novelization and audio book, Anakin realizes that he has been afraid to let go of his anger and use it. Once he does, he is able to overpower Dooku, despite the latter's excellent skill and power. When Anakin makes the decision to become a Sith, he gives up his soul and humanity, in exchange for power. He is, for all intents and purposes, a demon. A monster. Sure, he is still Anakin underneath the suit and all. But the good man is all but gone. All that's left is the monster. The spark of humanity is buried deep below the surface. Luke's love and compassion, as well as his actions aboard the Death Star, reignite that spark and bring back the humanity that was damn near eradicated.
  4. Jedi_Heretic Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 2, 2005
    star 1
    Qui-Gon says only Jedi, who are compassionate, can do this, the Sith cannot. There are some things I would like to say concerning this. Anakin is very compassionate, notice I say Anakin not Vader while although they are the same person, they are different, Vader is consumed by hatred, hatred of himself and that is what makes him so powerful, Anakin was always guided by love, from a mother, or a wife. So he was very compassionate towards Padme. Obi Wan said iot correctly in ROTJ than Anakin I knew died, he was right. When Vader/Anakin decides to help his son that is the ulimate act of compassion, love for a son. Seeing Luke oin the floor crying for help must have been like looking at himself years ago looking for help and no one answered, this time someone was there. Killing himself in the process Anakin atoned for all the wrong he had done. When we see Anakin standing next to them as a force spirit we se the Anakin that was compassionate, who loved, and was loved, not the mechanical tyrant, or what was left of him.
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Right, Anakin is able to retain his identity, because he embraces the true power of the Force. Compassion. Something that the Sith cannot comprehend, Sidious especially. He thinks it's about keeping the body alive, when it's really about making a spiritial connection to the Force.

    Yoda: "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter."
  6. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5


    Yes, it is quite compassionate of Anakin to call out to Obiwan while hanging from a ledge screaming "I HATE YOU!!"

  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Except that he's already evil then. Anakin loses his soul and "dies" when he kneels before Palpatine and is given the name "Darth Vader." From then on, he is Darth Vader. His humanity is gone. He is no longer compassionate, but greedy and hate filled. It isn't until ROTJ, that his compassionate side returns.
  8. NeoBaggins Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2003
    star 5

    So what is he when hes slaughtering Women and Children on Tattooine?
  9. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Despite what GL has said about Anakin's spirit appearing as he looked when he "died" as Anakin Skywalker, the novel clearly points out that both from Anakin's own POV as well as to the reader, that Anakin and Vader are the same person. Every being has a darkside in them - the Jedi train themselves to overcome it. Anakin could not - he gave in to the monster within, and it's a long-drawn out and slow journey, starting from the Tusken slaughter. It's not an on-off switch. IMHO, it diminishes the story and oversimplifies it to say that Anakin dies, and Vader is born in RotS. They always coexist together. If we believe - as Luke did - that there was still some Anakin left in Vader, then clearly he couldn't have died.

    I suppose though, that this could be semantics, and different ways people choose to look at it. But the innate desire for power and ability to murder to achieve it, was always present in Macbeth, long before his wife worked her magic on him. And the innate blind jealousy was always a part of Othello, long before Iago entered the picture. It's the same with Anakin/Vader.
  10. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Perhaps, Lucas isn't referring to him accepting the Sith as his death, but is instead referring to him dying on Mustafar - and Sidious resurrects him.

    Still - forever_jedi - that was well said. Vader is the monster in all of us. And while the good man was destroyed, the man still remains - different and evil. To an extent, I agree with "Dual Persona" - the theory works well for describing the two halves, the yin and the yang. Yet, I think what is critical to that concept is how the two are really one - one person, one man, one soul.
  11. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    I don't know for sure if the answer to this question will be seen in Episode 3 but I can say for sure that the ability to join the force AS WELL AS be sensed by Luke; after passing away has a huge plot implication. It becomes the way in which Luke is able to train himself. It's also the means that provide him guidance to locate Yoda in complete seclusion. Finally and most importantly, the knowledge of this gives Luke the courage to face his trials against Vader and Sidious. Obi-Wan's use of this enlightenment allows him to show Luke the best example of how to die with dignity in the face of a total loss. If the knowledge had not been discovered, the Sith would most certainly have been victorious in Episode 6.
  12. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    How do we know that Lucas wasn't trying to create a Sebastian Shaw version of a young force ghost Anakin from the very beginning? Maybe he didn't want to spend the money to hire a new actor to play some kid no one has ever seen before? Since the ghosts are something Luke "feels" anyway, it made more sense at the time of filming ROTJ to use Shaw so that we the Audience who NEED a visual reference to what is going on in the cosmos, would understand.

    With the completion of the Prequals, and the casting of a young Anakin, Lucas now had the freedom to show the ghost he may have always wanted to begin with.

    It's really pretty easy to see the relevence. It's just hard for people to see the change in a film that had already established memories. If it had been this way from the first viewing, there would be little debate on the issue.
  13. cmercado_miranda Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2004
    So the question still.... Why Yoda and Ben disappeared and Anaking and Qui didn't?
  14. jhferry Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2004
    I have always thought in the begining that the 3 older ghosts could be shown and then morph into the younger ones and then fade to black. Ewan could throw a simple head node towards Anikan showing his approval, It would add closure to the whole thing. If the shaw thing really bothers people Hayden can be aged for the older shot.
  15. DarthBorgh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    obi-wan and yoda could disappear and retain form because they knew how.

    qui-gon and anakin didn't know they could and didn't know they could maintain their essence.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda help Anakin maintain his essence after he died. As to why it was Hayden.. this is VERY easy... I would assume being that it is an essence you pretty much have complete control over how you look. I mean it is conjured of the force anyway, right? Well, the only way anakin knows of how he looks is when he was young and whole. Sure, he could have had himself propped against the log limbless and burned to a crisp, but if someone had a choice on how they looked, would it be like that? and in the context I am portraying, sorry to sebastian, but it wouldn't make sense for anakin to assume a "shape" that he had never known.. namely an elderly man he never grew into.

    just my thoughts.
  16. Jade40291 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2005
    star 2
    "He's more machine now than man; twisted and evil."


    IMHO I think he reverted to his last most pure form. Someone else said that it was because he died when he became Vader, I would go one step farther to say that he should have died on Mustafar, but through the Dark Side of the force as well as mechanical means he was kept alive in a Frankenstein-esque crime against nature kind of way. He was denied the release of death through the machinations of Palpatine, and therefore, upon his "real" death in ROTJ he was rewarded for his compassionate sacrifice by retaining his last most pure physical form.

    Just my thoughts...
  17. Puke-Eyeswater Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2002
    star 3
    Only read up to page 2, so apologies if this has already been stated.

    Very interesting discussion.

    I agree with the point that Anakin appears before his son as he wishes to. As does OB1 and Yoda. In the case of Ben and Yoda, they would manifest themselves in an image that was familiar and comfortable for Luke. In the case of Anakin the novel of RotJ adds something to the argument (after Luke removes Vader's mask)... [not verbatim as I haven't the novel to hand]

    ... He remembers running through the fields with Padme. It begins to rain, as he feels a raindrop fall on his face. As the delerium passed he realised that it wasn't rain at all. A teardrop from Lukes eyes had fallen on his face. He must look horrendous to his son. "Beings of light we are, Luke. Not this crude matter"..

    It gave the impression of Anakin being ashamed of how he appeared to Luke. It would make sense to manifest himself as he appeared at the pinnacle of his Jedi status.
  18. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
    Perhaps it is due to the nature of his physical condition at the end of ROTS. Since he is so badly damaged, and it seems his own dark will is the only thing that held him together for reconstruction. Maybe his bodily state after ROTS is considered necrotic and mechanic, thus his force essence would represent his pre-suit image.

    I actually really like that explanation. ;) :D I also think that it has to do directly with the fact that Anakin ceases to be Anakin when he becomes Darth Vader. When he appears in his ghost form it is of him as he looked when he was last Anakin Skywalker. In ROTJ, even though Vader saves Luke, that doesn't suddenly make him Anakin again. He was knighted a Lord of the sith and one act of kindness didn't just make that title go away.
  19. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    The whole point of Anakin's redemption is that he was the only person to be able to come back to the light and choose the greater good over his own life. This is what grants him that redemption supposedly and gives him back his status as a Jedi.

    Anakin is tainted from the point of the Tusken massacre and becomes increasingly dark after that. Why would he come back to a form that Luke doesnt recognize, that shows him as a man who is still tainted, and belittles his redeemed status. The great Jedi is the older Anakin not the younger one, who kills and lies and betrays the Jedi beliefs.

    It is inconsistent and illogical. If we take this from Lukes perspective that he's seeing the ones that impacted his life the most and that's why Qui-Gon isn't included then it is doubly troubling since the young Anakin isn't even known to Luke. I see it as a plot hole that diminishes the redemption scene and a lazy way to bridge the two sagas together.
  20. DarthBorgh Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2002
    star 1
    I disagree about the tainted part above..

    If you have read the novel, you would know that Palpatine is in fact unable to turn anakin for the most part. That hardly sounds like someone "tainted" or "dark" to me. Even after the Tusken slaughter. After killing Dooku. Heck, even after telling Anakin he could save Padme Anakin refuses to side with him. Heck, Anakin still wasn't falling for his ******** when Mace was there to arrest him. It was only when Mace was going to kill Sidious (and thus the knowledge to save Padme) that Anakin stepped down the path to the dark side head first. I mean I realize the other events were steps also, but I would hardly say he was on the path to the dark side after those.. even after Dooku.. it was the final betrayal against Mace, to hopefully protect padme, that was what sent him over.

    I only bring this up because everyone says he started turning over in Clones, and he didn't.. if you have read ROTS, you will know that even with nobody but Palpatine whispering in his ear (to kill grievous, to become a sith, etc) Anakin still held strong.

    as for which anakin appears to luke, let's not kid ourselves here. The only anakin that could appear to luke as you are saying is anakin in the suit with his head cracked open and all scarred to hell... why would he appear to look like that if luke had control over it.. and definitely why would he appear to luke like that if he had control over it..

    to be perfectly honest, in light of the whole PT, it really makes no sense to have elderly anakin as the force ghost. neither luke nor anakin would think or know to make anakin look like that, and let's face it.. the only reason he was there was because he was the actor that played the unmasked vader and at the time it was the only choice that made sense.. but in the continuity of the story, it makes little to no sense.

    lucas made the right choice there.
  21. Vezner Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2001
    star 5
  22. SpawnofSidious Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 19, 2003
    star 4
    most of you guys are right but Lucas explained this along time ago and now I wish I would of saved it. He said that Anakin's jedi identity is lost when he becomes a sith and when he rejoins the force in ROTJ his jedi identity comes back to what it was before he embraced the dark side of the force.
  23. AnakinBrego Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 15, 2004
    star 3
    I just read the Graphic Novel, and in it Yoda states that Anakin is no more and that Vader has taken over Anakin, and young Skywalker is no more!
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    So what is he when hes slaughtering Women and Children on Tattooine?

    An angry Jedi Padawan. He's not evil, just acting on human emotion, which he has no idea of how to control. In the Jedi Temple Massacare, he's cold and calculating. He's not acting out of revenge for a dead woman, he's acting out because he wants power and to keep that which he believes is his and his alone.

    It is inconsistent and illogical. If we take this from Lukes perspective that he's seeing the ones that impacted his life the most and that's why Qui-Gon isn't included then it is doubly troubling since the young Anakin isn't even known to Luke. I see it as a plot hole that diminishes the redemption scene and a lazy way to bridge the two sagas together.

    You think Luke's that stupid to not realize that is his father? That that was what he looked like before turning evil. He knows it's him. He's seeing that he is good again. That he is pure. That he has been restored to his former self. Give Luke some credit.

    It's not a plot hole, you just don't like it.
  25. Jedi_Lancer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2003
    star 1
    All I have to say about this is that I hope Lucas was thinking the force ghost thing through and, in the end, realized that, "Well, if that's the case, I'm gonna have to make Anakin young in episode VI" and then proceeded to do so.

    If this is the case, it will all make sense in the end.
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