Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by forever_jedi, Mar 25, 2005.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas, contrary to popular belief, has thought this out since he started working on TPM. Meaning that he has an answer for everything about the Force ghost.
  2. Jedi_Lancer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 1, 2003
    star 1
  3. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Actually, I think the point they were making, Sinister, is that Anakin is "grey" in AOTC and even again for most of ROTJ. He is conflicted, and exhibits both characteristics of his good side and evil side. It isn't as simple as an on-off switch: Good person and bad person. His change is gradual in both respects.

    Also, the OS does state that it is "Anakin Skywalker" after Vader throws Palpatine down the shaft.



  4. SABERHEAD Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2002
    star 1
    Did anyone think of this...

    If it is Obi-Wan and Yoda that help anakin to retain his identity, wouldn't it be sensible for him to appear as thy knew him? They would recall him as young Anakin, not as crispy Old Anakin. Thus, when they help draw him into the living force, it would only make sense for him to appear as they once knew him...the old friend, beloved pilot, when he was still the chosen one.

    or maybe the force ghosts aren't force ghosts at all--but holograms projected by r2-d2, who would then logically project the last memories he had of each of the three...

    so int the ultimate editions, r2 would be just offscreen projecting the family portrait for luke!
    then he could digitally insert anybody from the PT and make sense in continuity!

    hopefully my sarcasam is evident!
  5. forever_jedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2002
    star 5
    Finally and most importantly, the knowledge of this gives Luke the courage to face his trials against Vader and Sidious.

    This is a most interesting point and I agree! Almost from the beginning of Luke's training, he is aware that there is no death for true Jedi - that they are essentially immortal. No Jedi padawan/trainee before him had that knowledge during their training. This ought to impress upon him the power of the light side. He almost expects Obi-Wan to help him from the beyond - intercede with Yoda to train him on Dagobah, and come to his aid on Bespin. This definitely went towards his ability to defeat the Emperor and accept death rather than join Palpatine.

    If it is Obi-Wan and Yoda that help anakin to retain his identity, wouldn't it be sensible for him to appear as thy knew him? They would recall him as young Anakin, not as crispy Old Anakin.

    This is also partly my view. Anakin is young as a spirit, because
    1. he wants to show his son the Jedi he should have become in RotS
    2. Obi-Wan and Anakin want to remember him as the RotS Jedi, as he was when he was still their friend.
  6. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    My opinion is the alteration to the end of RotJ should have never been made because it doesn't make sense. Old Anakin as the Force ghost makes sense because he returned as a Jedi. Now all we have is confusion, a conflicting and contradictory ending, and no agreement as to why.
  7. Ladybird Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2004
    star 1
    Having Anakin appear as a healthy middle aged Shaw makes no sense to me. Anakin never looked like that when he was alive, so why would he as a spirit? I'm in the camp that believes the spirits can assume any form. They could probably even appear differently to different people. In ROTJ, we'd have been seeing them through Luke's eyes. It would have made sense for Obi-Wan and Yoda to appear as Luke knew them. Noone would want Anakin wouldn't want to appear as a cripple, so he appeared as he looked before he became a cripple.

    Obi-Wan and Yoda both disappeared when they died because they willingly merged with the Force. Obi-Wan clearly chose to sacrifice himself. Yoda could feel his physical body dying through illness, so he chose to merge with the Force. Anakin's case was different. His physical body died naturally. Obi-Wan and Yoda brought him back. When Obi-Wan talked about being more powerful than you can possibly imagine, this is the sort of thing they were talking about. They could grant eternal life. Not clear to whom they could grant this priviledge, but Anakin was certainly one of them.

    Qui-gon is the case I find the hardest to understand. It seems as if the Force itself chose to let him retain his identity to some extent, since he was the Jedi that listened to the will of the Force the most clearly and accurately, with the emphasis on trusting in compassionate feelings, etc. Of course, he didn't disappear because he didn't choose to merge with the Force.

    Re: when Anakin actually died
    Well that just depends on our point of view, now doesn't it?

    In conclusion, I don't think ROTS needs to explain why Anakin is younger. In fact I don't care if it doesn't explain the force ghost stuff at all in the films. I've found an explanation I'm happy with. I'm sure everyone else can find one they're happy with too, if they really want to.
  8. hear+soul Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 6
    I'll explain it to you:

    GL is stupid and messed with a classic.

    Old Anakin was so much better.
  9. DarthScubbles Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2004
    star 4
    Darth_Deception posted on 3/28/05 2:31pm

    GL is stupid and messed with a classic.

    Old Anakin was so much better.

    />

    While I agree with you that the older Anakin made more sence, ROTJ was far from a classic. It was the worst of the OT./>/>
  10. Violetsaber Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 3
    If it is Obi-Wan and Yoda that help anakin to retain his identity, wouldn't it be sensible for him to appear as thy knew him? They would recall him as young Anakin, not as crispy Old Anakin. Thus, when they help draw him into the living force, it would only make sense for him to appear as they once knew him...the old friend, beloved pilot, when he was still the chosen one.

    That, I beleive, answers the question for me. Good job!

    Violetsaber
  11. Pebbles73 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 23, 2005
    I think Anakin as a young man is the best idea GL ever did he was shown is his true form before he went to the dark side hence his youthfull appearance ok.I never seen Anakin in vader suit disappear but it is in a way implyed that he disappeared out of the suit cause in ROTJ Luke had a hard time dragging him so if he did disappear Luke could carry his suit down to the planet and burn the suit getting rid of the vader persona do you get what I am saying makes sence right LOL.
    Pebbles aka Orlando Bloom & Hayden Christensen Maniac
    Star Wars Ep. III Fanatic LOL :)
  12. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    To an extent, I agree with "Dual Persona" - the theory works well for describing the two halves, the yin and the yang. Yet, I think what is critical to that concept is how the two are really one - one person, one man, one soul.

    Hudnall, it takes a brave man to write "to an extent, I agree..." In that spirit, may I return the favor by saying I also agree with your statement about the yin and yang, about Anakin (and by extent all of us) being a product of both of his good and evil natures. Here's what I'd like you to consider, however: Anakin begins life as a whole person, the yin and the yang in balance. When Anakin turns to the dark side, however, one side becomes dominant and the other powerless (we see the same thing happening in the galaxy as a whole - the dark side slowly gaining power and overpowering the good). The whole person, Anakin (we'll call his good side "yin") leans increasingly toward the dark side (his "yang") until the yang completely takes over. When that happens, Anakin is no longer in balance. Like the Force (which, as the Chosen One, he represents in human form) the good side has lost power while the evil side takes control. Imagine Vader as the Yang out of control -- no good side to counter the negative. Without the good to add balance, Vader is essentially a different person even though he was once part of a whole person. That is the essence of the Dual Persona Theory. The Yin (the good side of Anakin) is repressed and sent, as you've mentioned, to a sort of purgatory -- trapped inside Vader. Obi-Wan thinks this condition is so irreversible -- that Anakin's good side CAN'T come back and restore balance -- that he considers the whole man dead and destroyed. For Obi-wan, from now on there is only half a man: the Yang - Vader. That is why, correctly, Obi-Wan (and Lucas) sees Vader as someone who is NOT Anakin. Anakin still had the potential to bring his yin and yang back into balance - even while killing Tuskens and Dooku. Turning to the dark side, however, removes that power, leaving only the evil side (Vader) in control. The Vader we see throughout the OT is half a man - a man controlled only by his evil side (his Yang). It makes sense, then, that Lucas would want to show Anakin return to his whole state -- a state that hasn't existed since ROTS -- in the ghost scene.

    So hopefully that helps balance our views. Dual Persona is, in a way, a description of the yin and yang split apart and out of balance.
  13. Hudnall Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2004
    star 5
    Precisely. :)

    Obi's real beliefs may be up in the air - but you'll need to see JR's thread for that debate. But that is exactly what Vader is - Anakin out of balance, the monster inside him - no longer the 'good man', but a shadow.

    That post deserves applause. Here's a nugget for you from the spoiler gods:

    In the temple, Yoda turns to Obi whom is refusing to go kill his former friend and (loose translation) says, "Anakin Skywalker, no longer your apprentice is. Consumed by Darth Vader, he has become."

    Yet again, it is important that this is Yoda's view at this time, and Yoda isn't exactly batting a 1000 in the PT. Yoda is caught up in the illusion of the two halves, the difference; and it takes Luke to see through that. Anakin, in that "blazing moment" as Stover writes, does as well.



  14. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    Anakin is tainted, you can call him gray or not altogether good but not altogether bad, but it all boils down to he was falling and had evil inside him. As Gl stated, Anakin's fall starts at the tusken massacre.

    Luke sees the old Anakin because he grows old in the mask and is an old man. He sees that old man as a good man and Jedi and loves him with that face. That is the man he bonds with, not the young Anakin who was already "tainted" and had a silent beast inside him that allowed him to kill the tuskens, betray the jedi, his wife and the younglings. I'm sorry but those are evil acts perpetrated by an evil man. He could silence the beast but it still existed within him.

    So again if we see this through Lukes eyes, which I believe is the only logical way to look at it adding the Young Anakin is a bad change that was unneccessary and shouldn't have been made.

    If we see this through the Force's eyes then it's even more dumb and unneccessary. The Force honors Anakin's journey back from the darkside as his greatest achievement and he's redeemed because of it. The Force isn't rewarding Anakin with a pretty face, it doesn't care what he looks like. It only sees what's important and Anakin's greatest achievement as a Jedi is coming back from the darkside and killing Sidious and that's the man it would honor, not the child and wife killer.

  15. severian28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2004
    star 5
    Actually with the shedded light that Anakin actually does not reach the master level of Jedi it does make sense to have a young Anakin in RotJ. His Jedi training beomes complete at the end of RotJ and it really shows you that it was simply a wrong choice in his life to embrace the darkside in RotS, no matter how coplicated it may have seemed to him. If he would have rejected Sidious as his son did, whether he lived or died, he would have become a Master of the force right then and there, as his son realized. Instead his spiritual growth is stunted and is replaced by abhorrated power, freezing the good man that was Anakin Skywalker.
  16. DarthToeJam Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2002
    star 4
    Precisely.

    Wha??!! As Boss Nass would say, "PEEEAAAACCCEEE!"

    Obi's real beliefs may be up in the air - but you'll need to see JR's thread for that debate. But that is exactly what Vader is - Anakin out of balance, the monster inside him - no longer the 'good man', but a shadow.

    That's what I've been arguing all along. That's why its always seemed confusing -- "well, is he destroyed or isn't he?!" Answer, it depends on who you ask. Unlike most people,Anakin's two sides have been split in two. Most people can control their two sides, but turning ot the dark side destroys Anakin's ability to control his evil side. The good side is powerless to do anything while his yang creates 20 years of galactic chaos.

    Now, not having read the novel, it seems Obi-Wan tries to convince Anakin to come back -- to regain enough power to return to balance -- but he fails. From Obi-Wan's perspective, his certain point of view, Anakin's yin has been destroyed because be BELIEVES that the dark side has locked it away forever. The yang, Vader, is in complete control forever. Even if he thought the yin still existed, that there is still some good left in Vader, it doesn't matter -- it can't come back. At the very least HE can't make it come back and regain balance. For Obi-Wan and Yoda, Vader is no longer Anakin the whole man. He is the yang, Vader - a being only of Anakin's evil side. That is why they consider Anakin dead and Vader to be someone else. And in a way they're right. Anakin without the power to control evil is certainly different than a man in balance. When Anakin loses that ability, he dies in a very literal sense even though his body with the yang in control continues to live and cause damage.

    Hopefully now you can see what has perhaps been so confusing -- that Obi-Wan WAS right about Anakin being "destroyed" and he wasn't just speaking in metaphor. The dark side really did split Anakin's yin and yang, even though they still existed inside one body.

    In the temple, Yoda turns to Obi whom is refusing to go kill his former friend and (loose translation) says, "Anakin Skywalker, no longer your apprentice is. Consumed by Darth Vader, he has become."

    Right, right, right. Anakin's out of control yang (Vader) has consumed the yin, rendering it impotent and powerless for 20 plus years until Luke comes along. Luke, the son of the Chosen One, detects what Obi-Wan and Yoda believed to have been long since lost: Anakin's good side still trapped in purgatory. When Obi-Wan tells Luke that he must confront Vader (translation: kill him), Luke (like Obi-Wan) is reluctant to kill off someone who might still have good inside him. Obi-Wan's response (taken, no doubt from personal experience) is for Luke to not consider Vader a man but a monster -- "he's more machine than man, twisted and evil." Even then, Luke can't conceive of killing his father and suggests maybe the "other" could do it. When Luke realizes the other is Leia, he knows he must find another solution to his crisis -- one that doesn't involve simply killing his father. Luke's triumph is that he attempts the radical plan of trying to make the split man whole -- to convince the good Anakin to return to power. That is the key to Anakin's WHOLE redemption. It is the power of Luke's love that enables the suppressed and dormant yin to find the power to do what Obi-Wan and Yoda considered to be impossible: to break the stranglehold of the yang -- to restore balance. When he does that "Vader" is destroyed (one Sith down) and then Anakin gives Palps the shaft (Sith two gone). Anakin is restored to balance and so is the Force ultmately because love is stronger than the dark side.

    Yoda is caught up in the illusion of the two halves, the difference; and it takes Luke to see through that. Anakin, in that "blazing moment" as Stover writes, does as well.

    Well, I think the illusion, as it applies to Anakin, is the belief that it is impossible to return to balance once the two halves has been split. That is certainly
  17. Obi-Can Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2002
    star 3
    No his Jedi training was completed when he killed Sidious and gave up the dream of ultimate power and accepted his own death. That's when he becomes a Jedi and that's why he should be old.

    You can't cut out a whole 3 movies and pretend that Anakin/DV didn't exist. By doing that you make DV's redemption meaningless, that journey is his enlightenment and brings him to finally make the right choice.

    You are twisting the OT as if its only purpose is to bring Anakin back to the way he was before he was a Sith. But Anakin before he was a Sith was unable to make the right choices because he lacked the courage and will to do so. Living as Darth Vader and finding Luke and being put in a position to see his son follow in his path is what enables him to grow into a Jedi and finally redeem himself. He only made the right choice because of that journey and therefore DV is redeemed just as much as Anakin.

    Having the old Anakin in the scene is poignant and sweet and shows Dv's redemption, the new one shows that DV is meaningless and unimportant to Anakin's development into a Jedi.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    If we see this through the Force's eyes then it's even more dumb and unneccessary. The Force honors Anakin's journey back from the darkside as his greatest achievement and he's redeemed because of it. The Force isn't rewarding Anakin with a pretty face, it doesn't care what he looks like. It only sees what's important and Anakin's greatest achievement as a Jedi is coming back from the darkside and killing Sidious and that's the man it would honor, not the child and wife killer.

    No one said that the Force was rewarding him. I'm saying that this young man, died 24 years ago on Courscant, for all intents and purposes. What we see is Anakin back in ROTJ, with his soul intact and how he was when he died the first time. Before being burned to a crisp and before becoming evil. As Lucas puts it.

    It?s not as apparent in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart."

    --George Lucas


    Only instead of Jake Lloyd, Lucas employed Hayden Christensen. Hayden who loved and was generous and kind. Who had a good heart.
  19. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Only instead of Jake Lloyd, Lucas employed Hayden Christensen. Hayden who loved and was generous and kind. Who had a good heart

    But the image of Hayden Lucas used was the post Tusken slaughter Anakin, already starting down the dark path. Pre-Tusken slaughter Anakin may have been a better choice if that was his aim. Personally, I dont care one way or the other, its his movie.
  20. Moriarte Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2001
    star 5
    Maybe Anakin, personally, was pre-Tusken slaughter but his hair was post-slaughter because he really likes the post-Tusken slaughter hair-style :confused:



    Ciou-See the Sig
  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Lucas only decided take the image of Hayden, while filming ROTS. Since by then, he was committed to making the DVD's before 2006.
  22. MANDALORIAN Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 15, 1999
    star 4

    And he didn't even film anything for the scene! He just cut and pasted footage from elsewhere!

    And yes, the long haired Anakin is far from good and pure.

    It also makes it look like Anakin is not responsible for any of his choices and actions as Vader was a 'different person'.

    No logic at all. Lucas's ill-thought out whim has once again left the fans scrambling to make sense of it.

  23. The_Four_Dot_Elipsis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2005
    star 5
    Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

    No, but the ROTJ audio commentary does.
  24. JohnWesleyDowney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2004
    star 5
    No logic at all. Lucas's ill-thought out whim has once again left the fans scrambling to make sense of it.

    Funny, I'm not scrambling at all. That's because I expect the man to make his films his way. I understand the choice and I think it's a wise one.
    Time will tell.

    Hudnall, it takes a brave man to write "to an extent, I agree..." In that spirit, may I return the favor by saying I also agree with your statement about the yin and yang, about Anakin (and by extent all of us) being a product of both of his good and evil natures. Here's what I'd like you to consider, however: Anakin begins life as a whole person, the yin and the yang in balance. When Anakin turns to the dark side, however, one side becomes dominant and the other powerless (we see the same thing happening in the galaxy as a whole - the dark side slowly gaining power and overpowering the good). The whole person, Anakin (we'll call his good side "yin") leans increasingly toward the dark side (his "yang") until the yang completely takes over. When that happens, Anakin is no longer in balance. Like the Force (which, as the Chosen One, he represents in human form) the good side has lost power while the evil side takes control. Imagine Vader as the Yang out of control -- no good side to counter the negative. Without the good to add balance, Vader is essentially a different person even though he was once part of a whole person. That is the essence of the Dual Persona Theory. The Yin (the good side of Anakin) is repressed and sent, as you've mentioned, to a sort of purgatory -- trapped inside Vader. Obi-Wan thinks this condition is so irreversible -- that Anakin's good side CAN'T come back and restore balance -- that he considers the whole man dead and destroyed. For Obi-wan, from now on there is only half a man: the Yang - Vader. That is why, correctly, Obi-Wan (and Lucas) sees Vader as someone who is NOT Anakin. Anakin still had the potential to bring his yin and yang back into balance - even while killing Tuskens and Dooku. Turning to the dark side, however, removes that power, leaving only the evil side (Vader) in control. The Vader we see throughout the OT is half a man - a man controlled only by his evil side (his Yang). It makes sense, then, that Lucas would want to show Anakin return to his whole state -- a state that hasn't existed since ROTS -- in the ghost scene.

    DarthToeJam, my compliments. This is one of the best written, most intelligent and thoughtful posts I've ever seen on these boards. =D=
  25. DBrennan3333 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 4
    Vader has a young and handsome ghost instead of an old and marred one not because he somehow was able to channel his younger self or because The Force brings you back representing the best part of your life or anything.

    Vader came back as a young ghost because LFL knows that most SW Fanboys are repressed homosexuals who would much rather ogle a young Hayden Christensen than an old Sebastian Shaw.

    Come on, you guys know you get a funny feeling down there when you watch Hayden stumble over his lines in AOTC for the hundredth time. Come on, be honest....

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