Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

JohnWesleyDowney - read ObiWanJR's thread.


DTJ - It isn't just that Luke sees that the good man is still there. Luke simply refuses to see good or bad side, he refuses to focus on the "illusion" - the duality - and sees only the man, his father. He doesn't just pity Anakin, he in fact shows mercy to Vader. He embraces Anakin for everything that he is - the yin and the yang; just like in Stover's account, Anakin realizes that he is both.

 

MOYERS: Is the emotion you wanted from him (Maul) different from the emotion you wanted from Darth Vader?

LUCAS: It's essentially the same, just in a different kind of way. Darth Vader was half machine, half man, and that's where he lost a lot of his humanity. He has mechanical legs. He has mechanical arms. He's hooked up to a breathing machine. This one is all human. I wanted him to be an alien, but I wanted him to be human enough that we could identify with him.

MOYERS: He's us?

LUCAS: Yes, he's the evil within us.

MOYERS: Do you know yet what, in a future episode, is going to transform Anakin Skywalker to the dark side?

LUCAS: Yes, I know what that is. The groundwork has been laid in this episode. The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion--of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides--the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.
Moyers, Bill. 1999. "Of Myth and Men." Time. 26 Apr. Vol 153. Issue 16. p 90

The film, and the Saga, are ultimately about the two sides of the equation - the good and the bad, the yin and the yang. And how those work together. Anakin, as the Son of God, comes to represent both sides - in 'persona' terms - Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader. But essentially, Darth Vader is the monster within Anakin, he is the "evil within us." And Anakin fails to slay that dragon - his own monster inside - and is consumed by Darth Vader, as Yoda describes in ROTS.

Simply put: Anakin has completely given in to his darker emotions, becoming evil. Those emotions are personified by "Vader," and so far as to formally recognize his complete baptism in evil, Lord Sidious knights him "Darth Vader." A new name, a new allegiance - a different evil and selfish being than what was the good young boy in THE PHANTOM MENACE. In mythological terms, the hero (Good Anakin) was slain by the dragon (the evil monster inside himself) and consumed.

Ultimately, as we all know, Anakin was not completely lost despite whatever points of view the remaining Jedi or the Emperor himself has. Through the compassion of mercy of Luke to even the monster half, Vader destroys his master and redeems himself and fulfill his own destiny as Chosen One, and return as Anakin.

Skywalker was seduced by the dark side of the Force. Fueled by rage and discontent with the pace of Obi-Wan's training, Anakin challenged his master to a duel. Despite newfound power bestowed by the dark side of the Force, which added to his already formidable abilities, Anakin was grievously wounded in the fight. His burning anger kept him alive, and he was forever scarred not only by his wounds but also by betrayal. He abandoned his former identity. When metal coupled with flesh in the form of cyborg implants and enhancements required to sustain him, Skywalker's transformation was complete. He was no longer Anakin. He was Darth Vader....

....Palpatine unleashed a deadly barrage of dark side energy on the young Jedi. Lightning bolts spawned from pure evil tore into Luke's body with searing pain. Vader stood helplessly, watching his son writhe in agony from torture delivered by his master. Unable to watch anymore, Vader turned against his master. He grabbed a surprised Palpatine from behind, hoisted him above his head, and tossed his evil master down a bottomless reactor shaft. Vader was bombarded by the Emperor's Force lightning, mortally wounding him.

As he lay dying, Vader ceased to be. Anakin Skywalker returned. He asked his son to remove the cumbersome, fearsome mask that had concealed his face for decades. His mask and life support removed, Anakin looked upon Luke for the first and last time. - StarWars.com from the bio of Darth Vader.

The good identity gives way to the dark

 

Now that has got to qualify for the longest post ever!

 

I think I'll just have to wait until Saturday when I read the script or novel before commenting further.

 

Damn.

 

All musings aside...

... For a kid watching from TPM through to RotJ, Christensen is the only real visual reference to Anakin "the jedi." When I was younger it didn't really sink in with me that the smiling old man was Anakin Skywalker because he was so disfigured under the suit. It is easier to distinguish him as Anakin if he is represented by the Anakin we know.

Then Lucas adds in some thinly thought out mythology to try and explain it to obsessive fans... he doesn't need to really... It's good of him, but the practical reasons are there for most to see.

 

Okay, I watched RotS for the third time today, and finally it made sense to me why Anakin's ghost is young in RotJ. It's because that's the way Obi-Wan (especially) and Yoda want to see him as a ghost.

Pablo had said "Episode III really adds a subtext to the last shot of the Jedi spirits in ROJ that wasn't there before."

In the RotJ DVD commentary Lucas said that Anakin was able to retain his identity because Obi-Wan and Yoda helped him to retain his identity after he died.

So, if Yoda and Obi-Wan help him retain his identity, then who does Obi-Wan want to see? The scarred, old Anakin who spent decades as a Sith lord, or the young Knight who was his pride and joy and who had all his limbs intact? In Episode III, we see how much Obi-Wan loved Anakin and how devastated he was to have to "destroy" him. He sees Anakin without limbs and on fire on Mustafar - that's probably the lowest moment of his life. Then he starts life looking after Anakin's son, waiting for a miracle to happen. When it does, and Anakin gives up his Sith identity and dies in the light, will Obi-Wan and Yoda want to bring back the Anakin they knew who was a hero, or the old man who had been both a Jedi AND a Sith? I think it makes sense, in light of RotS, that they brought the Anakin back, as he should have remained had he not succumbed to Palpatine.

 

Yeah buddy... to get you hyped about the new movie.....

 

He doesn't show up as young Anakin because Yoda and Ben want him too, that's retarded.

He shows up as young Anakin because that's how Anakin looked just before he became a crispy critter. It was also the last appearance of Anakin Skywalker before becoming Darth Vader. To have him look any other way would be either rediculous or argue with the continuity of the series.

 

In the rough draft?Ben explains that?if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.


"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

"In addition to the Zen-like Force that "surrounds us and penetrates us...(and) binds the galaxy together," as Obi-wan tells Luke, another Eastern religious element can be found in Vader's resemblance to demons that, in the Buddhist tradition, were at one time human and, through the actions of Buddha or his followers, are freed from their demonic state.

They usually wind up dying and through death are released from their demonic state. Again, that's a parallel to Vader, who is only freed at the point of his death."

--Shanti Fader, USA Today article and "Star Wars And Philosophy."

For the shot in which Luke Skywalker sees his father appear as a spirit in the company of Yoda and Obi-Wan, Hayden Christensen has been inserted in place of Sebastian Shaw. Following a brief discussion, Lucas confirms that he does not want to age Christensen, explaining that Anakin has reverted to who he was when he went over to the dark side."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith.

"[Hayden in ROTJ] was added because it was a way of finishing off the series. The idea was that [Anakin's] inner person would go back to where we left off when it turned to the dark side -- when [Anakin] got burned up and everything, but before [he] got burned up. So when [he] comes back to the good side of the Force, that it's [his] FORMER PERSONA that survives NOT the DARTH VADER PERSONA."

--George Lucas AOL interview, 2005.

 

Now I love george I do, god knows I do, but...........




ever think he might want to sell DVDs.




I mean you know how we fans are.




We will spend 60 bucks on something we already have if it has something even remotely different in it.

 

So when [he] comes back to the good side of the Force, that it's [his] FORMER PERSONA that survives NOT the DARTH VADER PERSONA."

--George Lucas AOL interview, 2005.

Thanks, Sinister. The "Dual Persona Theory" confirmed by the man. The quote about the Buddhist "demonic state" is also very interesting. Do you have a link to the whole article?

 

Still an interseting thread and good discussion all around,

About what Lucas says, on the RotJ commentary he does talk about Anakin dying but he also says "..the redemption of Darth Vader.." and under the dual persona theory Vader is not redeemed, he is just destroyed. So if Vader is just all evil and a separate persona from Anakin, the one that have controlled Anakins body and done very horrible things and when Anakin turns back Vader is destroyed, how then can Vader be redeemed?
If we are to use all what Lucas says then this have to be taken into acount as well.
If Vader is actually redeemed and turns back from his evil ways and rejects his hate and embraces the light again and there is not that one persona "dies" or is "destroyed" but that by letting go of his hate Vader becomes the good man, Anakin, again. So his evil side is not destroyed but it becomes balanced again. When he was Vader he was unbalanced and comsummed by anger and hate, but by letting go of that he becomes balanced once again and is Anakin once again.

But the most important thing to me is that I feel that Anakin at the end of RotJ is a better jedi and a much wiser person than he was before his turn. That he had actually learned something and had grown in wisdom, compassion and understanding compared to the conflicted, arrogant and angry young jedi he was. That he has learned the lesson he could not learn when he was younger. That is perhaps my biggest problem with this Anakin is different from Vader or Anakin going back to what he was before the fall. It could be seen as that all that the years in the suit and all that he did just goes away like a dream and Anakin have no memory, responsibility or experience of the last 20 years. That he litteraly becomes Anakin at the start of RotS and the last twenty years has not really happened.

Regards
Nordom

 

Nordom, I think the important thing to keep in mind in all of this is that while Vader is a separate persona, it is a persona created from Anakin. There is a duality where Anakin and Vader are both the same and distinct at the same time. Religions and mythology often deal with these types of duality (Christ was both mortal and divine, for example). Consequently, I think it's possible to speak of "Vader" and "Anakin" interchangably while still recognizing that Vader is the evil demon Anakin transforms into when he embraces the dark side. I think phrases like "Vader's redemption" are used more for the sake of convenience since we only see the masked guy killing Palpatine in ROTJ and not the guy under the mask.

I think it will be interesting to see how future generations interpret Anakin's fall, having seen the story in order. We went into the prequels knowing something that people watching the films in order do not: that it is possible to turn BACK from the dark side. The films in order give no clue that this is possible for Anakin. In fact, several times the characters make it clear it's NOT possible -- that turning to the dark side is "forever." I think future generations will have an easier time, then, understanding that Anakin allowed himself to be consumed by the dark side, creating a monster known as Darth Vader, and that he suffered a spiritual death when that happened.

 

Hubnall

 

pretty awful move putting young Anakin as a force ghost in ROTJ..Lucas shouldve kept it the way it was because it made alot more sense

 

Ok, here's how I see how Anakin appears as a young Anakin spirit. First of all, Qui-Gon discovered how he could, through the force, reappear and maintain his identity and have a physical image that could be seen by living people. He did die physically contrary to Obi-Wan and Yoda who transcended directly from their living form to their force form you could say, they didn't really went through the state of dying... Qui-Gon found out how to use the force to gather some energy to create himself an image that could be seen by living people. We never saw how Qui-Gon decided to appear, but I guess you could say that the Jedis can probably chose what form they will take...As a dead entity, you probably keep in your soul, an image of how you were throughout your life since the body and the soul is intimately related...So, the first image you probably remember is the one you had just before dying...Which is why it is easier to appear as you were last seen by living people. But for Anakin...His last image was one of a disfigured man with no physical arms or legs...Not really the best state to appear to people so, he probably went back in his self memory to bring back the last image of himself as a complete man...and that is just before he became Darth Vader. He probably did this with the help of Yoda and Obi-Wan like other people said...and probably Qui-Gon too...

 

The adding of young pre sithlord anakin make perfect sense to me. It makes sense if you look at how Obi talks about Vader and Anakin as seperate entities.

 

No, I have it from USA Today. The book "Star Wars and Philosphy" is where the Shanti Fraser quote originated.


It's not that complicated. Hayden represents Anakin before he turned to evil. So to seperate Vader and Anakin, at the very end and to tie it together, we have Hayden as Anakin. Separate from Shaw as the unmasked Vader.

 

SELF-EDIT: Redundant

 

sheesh, here we go again!!!

 

There wasn't anywhere in ROTS where it even comes close to explaining who or how Anakin appearing as his young self at the end of Jedi.

Nor does Yoda making that reference to Qui-Gon get an explanation. Once again, Lucas with his endless tinkering has just plain made things more confusing than they have to be.

I wish he would leave well enough alone....

 

I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but it appears that Anakin has both of his hands in Jedi as a force ghost. Wouldn't that imply that he turned to the dark side before his confrontation with Dooku in Clones?

 

It's not that complicated

I agree. Lengthy philosophical debates aside, visually the point is really clear: whatever Anakin had become during his masked years is gone. The Sith presence has been destroyed.

There wasn't anywhere in ROTS where it even comes close to explaining who or how Anakin appearing as his young self at the end of Jedi.

"Your apprentice, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader."

 

It's meant to be self obvious.

YODA: "Master Kenobi, wait a moment. In your solitude on Tatooine, training I have for you."

OBI-WAN: "Training??"

YODA: "An old friend has learned the path to immortality."

OBI-WAN: "Who?"

YODA: "One who has returned from the netherworld of the Force to train me . . . your old Master."

OBI-WAN: "Qui-Gon?"

YODA: "How to commune with him. I will teach you."

In ANH, Vader is baffled by Kenobi's disappearence. Then in ROTJ, we see Yoda and Obi-wan already standing there. Ben looks over just as Anakin appears, who looks over and smiles at him, before turning to Luke and smiling at him.

In other words, you connect the dots.