Does RotS explain why Anakin's spirit is young in RotJ?

Tell me about it. After all these years everyone still needs George Lucas to provide them with Cliff/Coles notes to understand very simple points.

Don't worry in the autumn, his DVD with his audio commentary will be absolutely useless and the deleted scenes in the bonus material will be irrelevant. Unless, however Jar Jar Binks decides to do a commentary and explain things to people. LOL

 

He shows up as young Anakin because that's how Anakin looked just before he became a crispy critter. It was also the last appearance of Anakin Skywalker before becoming Darth Vader. To have him look any other way would be either rediculous or argue with the continuity of the series.

1. Anakin didm't look like that "just" before he became a crispy creature. He was minus a limb and wearing leathers.
2. It was not the last appearance of Anakin Skywalker as Darth Vader. The last appearace as Anakin is when he tells his son "You were right about me" on Endor. And he was not really "Anakin" just before the duel, he was Vader.

Nordom's post on the last page is great. Anakin was a far greater Jedi in RotJ, with compassion, maturity, wisdom, having conquered his own darkness. This is also the image of his father that Luke saw. The fact that this was not the Anakin that was seen as a ghost, in fact, points to my POV, that the young, innocent Anakin wearing true Jedi robes, is how Obi-Wan and Yoda want to bring him back and show to his son. Retaining his identity and bringing him back as a young, whole person to show him his children, is also their gift to him on behalf of the Force.

 

The fact that this was not the Anakin that was seen as a ghost, in fact, points to my POV, that the young, innocent Anakin wearing true Jedi robes, is how Obi-Wan and Yoda want to bring him back and show to his son.

Well, that's your POV, but that's not what Lucas says happens or why he says he changed the shot. So there we are. Lucas has said he added Hayden to show the Vader persona had been destroyed. People get too hung up on Anakin's clothing or whether he was missing a limb. The point is that Anakin was a good (albiet troubled) man before he allowed himself to be consumed by the dark side. That's what he returns to at the end of ROTJ -- and Hayden represents the eternal youth of the good man he was, not the twisted evil of the monster that he later became.

 

i think sinister's explanation is perfect for kenobi's and yoda's ghost in rotj... but wadda bout anakin?!

 

Anakin's clothes and lack of injuries show that he's human and whole again. That the Dark Side is gone. His humanity, which started to lose as he became more machine than man, is now restored. He wears the robes of his Master, in honor of his newfound status.

 

I agree with that, I also think he wasnt shown like sebastian shaw because he never really looked like that, he never had white hair or any of that, he was deformed, the normal sebastian shaw ghost was an anakin that never existed. The hayden christensen ghost was the last of what anakin looked before becoming darth vader

 

Well lets see if I can try to make this clear,

Before the fall Anakin, like all others, have a darkness inside him, this evil/darkness we can call Vader. But he also has his good/light side, call it Anakin, and these two sides are in balance. When he falls, the dark overpowers the light and the Vader side becomes dominant and the light is supressed, he becomes unbalanced and destructive.
Now when Anakin/Vader is redeemed what happens to the darkness? If Anakin becomes balanced once again, then the darkness is not destroyed, it just goes back a 50/50 balance. If the darkness is destroyed then Anakin is just as unbalanced as before his redemption, before he was all dark, now he is all light. So which is it?

DTJ, you say that when Lucas talks about Anakin dying he is being very precise but when he talks about the redemption of Vader he is just being convienient. That means that you decide what Lucas means, in one case he is very specific, in other cases he is just using a convinient phrase. That makes it harder to use what Lucas says because sometimes he is being literal in other cases he uses a more simplified mode of speach. Unless we can actually sit down with Lucas and ask him, what did you mean with this, what did you mean with that etc. I am hesitant start overinterpreting what Lucas, oh here he is just being sloppy but here he being very precise etc. Note I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I am reluctant to take what people say and putting too much of my own interpretation on it.

"The point is that Anakin was a good (albiet troubled) man before he allowed himself to be consumed by the dark side. That's what he returns to at the end of ROTJ -- and Hayden represents the eternal youth of the good man he was, not the twisted evil of the monster that he later became. "

But again, you say he returns to the man he was just before the fall, good but troubled.
My problem with that is that it looks like he has not grown or matured, since he is exactly like he was before his fall, he could very easily make the same misstake again. I prefer to think that old Anakin have learned from his misstakes, that he is now a better man than he was before, that he has grown beyond the troubled and flawed person he was before. That the old Anakin, had he been alive, would never do the same misstakes that the young Anakin made.
The notion that Anakin simly reverts back to the person he was before the fall, flaws and all, suggests that he has not grown or learned anything from his experiences and he could easily make the same misstake all over again. To use a very silly analogy, it is like in a computer game, you save your game, then go and do something very bad and at then end you just reload and start again.

I have no real problem with Anakin apearing young because he wanted to be seen that way, or that is how he saw himself, or that is how Obi-Wan and Yoda saw him. But when is comes to Anakin as a person, I think that it is a far better story if it is about a good man goes through the darkside and comes out a better and wiser man, as opposed to just returning to the man he was before all that.

Regards
Nordom

 

this is about retaining one's identity.
how you or other people view that identity is subjective.
identity is a reflection of the mind...
the force ghosts are not made of flesh and bone.
it's essentially an illusion.

yoda and ben helped anakin retain his identity.
perhaps part of what it means to retain your identity relies on radiating what's in your mind.
i don't think anakin, ben or yoda knows what the "old" anankin looks like, so they don't know how to rebuild that identity.
instead they go with what they know.

unless you assume that it's the force that does all the work and decides these things.
perhaps that's the case, but i personally don't think so.

 

You guys will come up with just about anything to justify a mistake by Lucas. There's no artistic or story line reason to make the change so you have to figure one out for yourselves. The only reason for the change was to sell more DVD's. Once you understand that, you'll truly understand the dark side that is marketing.

 

"Nothing happens by accident, everything is the will of the force" Qui Gon's words.

This is why Yoda and Ben accept what anakin did and he was able to be redeamed as his younger self, before he was consumed by vader at the end of ROTJ. He gave his life for love.
An act of self sacrifice was his one way ticket to immortallity. That and the love of his departed friends. That is why the sith will never gain the knowledge or the power to prevent death or gain imortallity. They dont care for love and would never sacrifice their life for another. This is the reason i believe the whole Darth Plagus story is simply a lie, elaberated on by Palpetine to snare anakin, telling him exactly what hew wants to hear.

 

Before the fall Anakin, like all others, have a darkness inside him, this evil/darkness we can call Vader.

I'm not sure I'd fully agree with the idea that Vader was inside Anakin fully formed just waiting to get out. I look at it more as Vader was created once Anakin opened himself up to the dark side. The dark side provided the fuel and Anakin was the spark. It's a subtle diffference. Anakin, like all others, has the potential for darkness inside him. Unleashing that potential creates a new persona we call Darth Vader.

Now when Anakin/Vader is redeemed what happens to the darkness? If Anakin becomes balanced once again, then the darkness is not destroyed, it just goes back a 50/50 balance. If the darkness is destroyed then Anakin is just as unbalanced as before his redemption, before he was all dark, now he is all light. So which is it?

Does it really matter? Unbalanced skewing toward good is certainly better than unbalanced skewing toward evil. The point is that his evil persona has been defeated and can no longer harm the galaxy.

DTJ, you say that when Lucas talks about Anakin dying he is being very precise but when he talks about the redemption of Vader he is just being convienient. That means that you decide what Lucas means, in one case he is very specific, in other cases he is just using a convinient phrase.

I'm not only considering Lucas' statements, but also what the characters say. For example, part of the Duel Persona Theory was conceived around the idea that Obi-Wan isn't lying to Luke when he says "Vader betrayed and murdered your father." For him that's a literal truth. But we can't forget that part of the unfolding of this story has involved a storytelling reveal on Lucas' part. He began with a character named "Vader" who we were first led to assume was a different person than Luke's father. Then it's revealed they are not two people, but the same person. Along the way, the population has grown to know a character named Darth Vader who is iconic with the helmet and the labored breathing. This leads to understandable confusion about who were talking about when. All I'm saying is that the phrase "redemption of Vader" is a convenient phrase because at that point in the story we see the masked character rather than the guy under the mask.

I am hesitant start overinterpreting what Lucas, oh here he is just being sloppy but here he being very precise etc. Note I am not saying that you are wrong, just that I am reluctant to take what people say and putting too much of my own interpretation on it.

Sure, I understand your hesitancy, but in the case of Lucas' recent statement he specifically says the Vader persona is destroyed, which is pretty clear.

you say he returns to the man he was just before the fall, good but troubled.

No, I said he returns to being a good man. Before his fall he WAS a good man, but he was also troubled. I don't think he goes back and is once again troubled as if, as you say, someone hit the reset button. He has learned his lesson from his time in hell as Vader. Showing Hayden doesn't invalidate that.

My problem with that is that it looks like he has not grown or matured, since he is exactly like he was before his fall

I think we see the older and wiser Anakin you suggest as he's dying on the Death Star. The redeemed ghost Anakin represents a return to grace and the completion of his destiny as the Chosen One. But I think more specifically it shows that Anakin's time as Vader was a horrible and tragic wrong turn that Anakin has erased.

he could very easily make the same misstake again.

I don't assume that from seeing Hayden.

But when is comes to Anakin as a person, I think that it is a far better story if it is about a good man goes through the darkside and comes out a better and wiser man, as opposed to just returning to the man he was before all that.

I'd argue that showing Hayden doesn't change that.

 

You guys will come up with just about anything to justify a mistake by Lucas. There's no artistic or story line reason to make the change so you have to figure one out for yourselves. The only reason for the change was to sell more DVD's.

Either that or we take into consideration this is a story that has been told in reverse over the course of 28 years and we've only recently been offered the final pieces to the puzzle.

I doubt anyone was motivated to buy the DVDs just because Hayden was now in a 5 second shot in ROTJ. If anything Lucas probably LOST sales from disgruntled ubber fans who think he's messin' with the masterpiece some more. So there goes that theory.

 

Lucas can spout all the crap he wants about Anakin dying and Vader taking over. But the fact remains; in the Vader 'birth' scene, it is clearly Anakin in the suit. ASKING about Padme. He is the same person he is just in a suit.

I hate the way Lucas is now making Vader and Anakin to be different people. Thats not what the OT was about.

 

Lucas can spout all the crap he wants about Anakin dying and Vader taking over. But the fact remains; in the Vader 'birth' scene, it is clearly Anakin in the suit. ASKING about Padme. He is the same person he is just in a suit.

It's not just Lucas' crap, but Yoda's crap, Obi-Wan's crap... lot of crap apparently. Vader was created from Anakin. It's not like he's a zombie with no memory of who he was or what he's done. Of course Vader would ask about Padme. That doesn't invalidate anything.

I hate the way Lucas is now making Vader and Anakin to be different people. Thats not what the OT was about.

Sure it was. All the evidence was there. Yoda and Obi-Wan clearly believe Anakin was destroyed by Vader and now Vader must be killed. That's Luke's dilemma in ROTJ: he has to kill Vader and he can't do it -- so he finds another option.

 

I still think Lucas should alter Vaders unmasking in ROTJ. If you alter the ghost scene, this only makes sense and would be easy to do. Reshoot it with an aged HC in the suit. All you need is a Mark Hamill look-a-like from the back since Sebastian Shaws dialogue shows him only and MH from the back. Maybe add some more lines that show his grief over his deeds in ROTS, especially the death of Padme and his tattered relationship with his "brother" Obiwan. I'd love to hear something like this to really tie the saga together.

 

side note...

Was Anakin a Jedi Master?

The ending scene with the force ghost

 

I think he does become a jedi master in the end. ANd why in the world would you reshoot the unmasking scene again. Anakin is supposed to be an older person, not young in Episode III. It would make no sense at all. LIke everyone else has been saying. Anakin retains his image because that is who he was before he turned to the dark side. This is not a mistake at all, and I really liked the changed alot.

 

reshooting the scene would be good..
They could make anakin look slightly older and very badly scared from the burns...

S. Shaw was too fat and old for that scene....

 

Persona is only a mask. Don't confuse yourself. The two are the SAME.

 

Sure it was. All the evidence was there. Yoda and Obi-Wan clearly believe Anakin was destroyed by Vader and now Vader must be killed. That's Luke's dilemma in ROTJ: he has to kill Vader and he can't do it -- so he finds another option.


Yes, Yoda and Obi Wan believe that Anakin is gone but they are proved WRONG. There was still good in Anakin - Luke believed that and was RIGHT.

The story was all about how the love between Father and Son brought back the Father to the good side. Vader is all Anakin - not a separate person.

Lucas has now sided with Yoda and Obi Wan, forgetting that, in the context of the story, these characters were wrong in the belief that Anakin was gone.

That is a fundamental change in the story that has become classic. The young ghost implies that Anakin was possessed by Vader, it was really the same person all along.

 

Yes, Yoda and Obi Wan believe that Anakin is gone but they are proved WRONG. There was still good in Anakin - Luke believed that and was RIGHT.

Exactly. We keep forgetting YODA is W R O N G. Not just wrong. But gets his butt whipped and sent into exile. Totally wrong. Bow down to Qui-Gon because he doesn't know jack, wrong.

Luke was right. And in the end, Vader was right. And Padme was right.

Vader is still Anakin, and "there is still good in him." Vader's just an evil form of Anakin. Stop getting confused by the illusion. Vader is not an "evil spirit possessing Anakin". He's not from the outside. He's from the INSIDE.

 

Why reshoot the unmasking? Ewan Mcgregor looks like a younger version of Alec Guiness, even the young Tarkin is a carbon copy of Peter Cushing. Sebastian Shaw looks NOTHING like HC and, as was mentioned, he looks much too old for the 20+ years that we now know has transpired. Before the PT, we had no idea how old Anakin was supposed to be. We do now. He was around 22 at the most. if we add say 23-25 years from ROTS to ROTJ we get a 45-47 year old. Sebastian Shaw looks to be 65 maybe 70 years old. And I don't wanna hear about premature aging because he's in the suit.

EDIT: Sebastian Shaw was born in 1905, that means when they filmed Jedi, he would have been 76 or 77 years old, depending on when he filmed his scenes. Certainly, Anakin is nowhere near that old in ROTJ, not by a long shot.

 

Sebastian Shaw looks NOTHING like HC and, as was mentioned, he looks much too old for the 20+ years that we now know has transpired


The purpose of the older figure is to show how evil and twisted the darkside has made him. From novels a friend of mine read, it explains how use of the darkside slowly decays and eats away at a person physically. Thats why the emporer looks so haggared when we se him again in ROTJ, he's been using so much dark side powers in ROTS that he's decaying with evilness. Thats why anakin looks the way he does when we see him again at the end of the movie without the mask. He's been eroded, aged and eaten by evil. This sceene should not be changed at all and i'm sure most fans would hate the idea of this.

 

Do you think Qui-Gon ever tried to communicate with Vader? Or do Sith Lords have a sort of 'call blocking' from the netherworld, especially if it's communication with Jedi from the netherworld? Or perhaps, since Anakin was truely lost, Qui-Gon couldn't find him, because Anakin Skywalker had essentially died.

 

Anything the ROTJ novel says is irrelevant since many people believe that Palpatine has always looked the way he does (I'm kind of on the fence on that). Dooku for instance had been a Sith for a decade or more with no ill effects (he's an old man, sith or not), he's just old so to say that the 20 years Anakin was a Sith wouldn't show him age that dramatically. He's scarred from burns, not old. If GL is going to insert atrocities such as Greedo shooting first and the whole Jabba scene in ANH, I think HC in the unmasking is mild in comparison, IF DONE RIGHT. Either take him out of the ghost scene or redo the unmasking scene because frankly, all the "reasons" in this thread for him to look young because of his spirit are nonsense IMO. So either put Shaw back in the ghost scene or unmask Hayden I say.