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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Does ROTS' second hour represent Lucas' best filmmaking in a SW picture?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Tyranus_the_Hutt, Mar 29, 2006.

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  1. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    AOTC is without a doubt in my mind, the most inconsistent film in the Saga, with ROTJ probably running second.

    Overall, I think TPM is a more consistent, better constructed single movie, with AOTC's highs hitting higher, and its lows sinking lower.

    ROTS is far superior to Episodes I and II.

    But as I've argued many times before, and I think Jumpman mentioned in this thread, Lucas left so much until the last film and even the last hour, that's a shame he didn't spread it out more.

    I would have had AOTC-era Anakin start off in Episode I, and probably even ditched Qui-Gon, or had him as a lesser role.

    The PT is all about Anakin's relationships with Padme, Palpatine, and Obi-Wan, and I think we don't get to see enough of that until AOTC for Padme and (slightly) Obi-Wan, and until ROTS for Palpatine and (mainly) Obi-Wan.

    This was one of the strengths of the OT, in that the main characters were thrown together and (generally) stayed together.
     
  2. Jumpman

    Jumpman Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 12, 2003
    Even with so much stuff left until Episode III, Lucas finds a way to make it work for 90% of the time.

    Ultimately the genius and misstep of the entire Prequel Trilogy begins with Episode I and not having Anakin as a teenager in that film.

    On the one hand, having Anakin start off as this innocent little boy and seeing how he becomes Darth Vader is utterly brilliant. It's a masterstroke. At the end of Episode I, Lucas makes you question how the heck does that little boy become Darth Vader.

    At the same time, that calculated step throws the entire Prequel Trilogy off just a bit. While I love to fill in the missing pieces given the evidence in the films, Lucas left alot off the table. While I love the idea of Anakin being forced on to Obi-Wan by the dying wish of his master and how it runs throughout the Prequel Trilogy, Obi-Wan should've found Anakin on Tatoonie on his own and then we meet Qui-Gon once they arrive on Coruscant. And Anakin should've been the same age as Padme.

    Not saying that Lucas made a mistake. I'm saying that there is an alternate Episode I that greatly would've changed the pace of the characterizations for the rest of the Prequel Trilogy.

    And yet, I like the pace of the characterizations as it stands now. Anakin's age is apart of his problem throughout this story.

    Again, it's a constant back and forth with this Trilogy.
     
  3. RebelScum77

    RebelScum77 Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Aug 3, 2003
    I completely agree with G-FETT here. Despite whatever small problems there may have been, or philosophical questions about what the three prequels should have dealt with, nothing has ever affected me in the theatre more than this second hour of ROTS. I sat shocked, horrified and deeply saddened and I already knew what was going to happen. I could hardly even cry as I sat with my mouth literally agape. It is very rare that a film affects me this much, and of course it is partially due to my love of Star Wars in general, but I feel that George crafted something amazing in this, something that could evoke so much emotion. While I love the rest of the films, I have never had the same kind of reaction.
     
  4. R2-12point

    R2-12point Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Jan 12, 2002
    I remain practically the only slob in the world who likes the first half of Revenge better than the second.

    The first half of Revenge has well done adventure and a good examination of a hero in over his head and soon to face a tough decision. It's fun and then it resonates. But I just don't see the brilliance in any part of the second half. There're great ideas but the scripting is very erratic, and the pacing even more so, pausing at moments it should ramp up, ramping up past moments it should reflect on. The Duel itself, I find, peters out halfway through, though I do admit its last few seconds come across. And then there are the puzzling, unfilled-in parts of the story.

    George Lucas's filmmaking heights remain a) a near unparalleled run of successes as an independent producer, b) his perfecting of extended multiple-story editing in movies, and c) the ultimate triumph of pacing and cutting that is the original Star Wars. His not winning a directing award for the last thirty minutes of that film alone are one of the Academy's biggest (but endless) mistakes.

    The last half of Revenge is certainly the weightiest dramatic material GL's ever undertaken as a director (excepting maybe THX in principle). It certainly is an impressive laundry list of events. But its material that is first and foremost a matter for words and actors, and on neither account did GL make sufficient strides in those areas so as to top himself. He remains a director of images, themes and concepts, and for that I have to point to any of his first three movies as superior creations.
     
  5. PrinceEspaaValorum

    PrinceEspaaValorum Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Jan 30, 2005
    Mr Hutt -- please, please, please, get yourself over to IMDb at some point and make a review of this film! Do what must be done. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

    Yes, well said. And great analysis as always, TH. However, for me GL is at his best from Anakin Skywalker's ruminations about Padme to Lord Vader's meeting up with Padme on the balcony after the sith has hit the fan. GL is a master editor and storyteller: the narrative interweaving via intercutting, including the 2 montages--ruminations and his betrayal/Jedi slaughter--are incredible.
     
  6. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    I think Revenge of the Sith's first half is just nipping at the heels of the second. In some ways, I prefer the first half -- I like watching Anakin wrestling with his conscience and I like seeing things before they go to ****. I normally always prefer first halves to seconds in films (about the only exception to this, actually, would genuinely be TESB).

    All of these things are examples of Lucas' superior craftmaship as an EDITOR first and foremost. I do genuinely think that Revenge of the Sith was robbed of nominations for sound design, costuming, art design, visual effects and editing. Crash was the winner of the latter, and while its multi-tiered storytelling is compelling, I question how the editing actually transcends the original parameters of the story/screenplay itself. With Lucas, and by his own admission, he is a "painter" of sorts who does his best work in the editing room; all six Star Wars films, particularly the prequels, have only been molded and sculpted into the films we know them as today in editing (A New Hope, for example, was by Lucas' own adission "a mess", until it was pared down and cut together after filming). Revenge of the Sith has many moments of editorial brilliance, including, but not limited to: the opening vignette (pared down from 45 minutes+ to 20 minutes); judicious removal of material to keep the focus on Anakin and keep the film within "serial length/rhythmic" bounds; the ruminations sequence; the Order 66 montage (similar to the liberation of the Krakow Ghetto in Schindler's List); Palpatine annointing the Empire as Anakin slaughters the Separatists (similar to the baptism montage in The Godfather); Obi Wan telling Padme that Anakin has turned to the Dark Side followed by Anakin on the balcony on Mustafar; intercutting of Yoda/Palpatine and Obi Wan/Anakin duels, juxtaposition between the birth of the twins and the birth of Vader (Lucas even says on the DVD commentary track that they were originally separate -- a patent example of something heightened by editing); the closing polyptych that lays out the destinies of the Skywalker family. Revenge of the Sith is just a stunning piece of editing through and through.
     
  7. Jumpman

    Jumpman Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 12, 2003
    Brilliant description of who GL is as a filmmaker, Cryo and R2
     
  8. septic

    septic Jedi Master star 2

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    Jan 28, 2005
    No, I liked his direction of the ANH better.
     
  9. Tyranus_the_Hutt

    Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 14, 2004
    This is the last one hour of Episode III in a nutshell. From Padme's Ruminations to the last shot of the film...this is absolutely on the money, Tyranus. Perfect description.

    Thanks very much for the compliment, Jumpman.:)

    The 2nd hour of ROTS was AWESOME!!! It's not only Lucas' best filmaking, but the best filmaking in cinematic history!!!!

    I don?t know about that, and I?m the author of this thread.

    What else can I say but AWESOME!!!!!

    Okay...

    Mr Hutt -- please, please, please, get yourself over to IMDb at some point and make a review of this film! Do what must be done. Do not hesitate. Show no mercy.

    I think I?ll pass, but thanks for the compliment.

    I also think that Revenge of the Sith's second half resounds with a towering sense of pathos; this is indeed a pop culture tragedy writ large

    It?s not really a "pop culture tragedy," but it is a classically formed tragedy buried within the confines of a mainstream entertainment.

    But Revenge of the Sith is not without its clunkier and sillier moments in this more graceful and visceral half. Try as he might, Lucas can't quite sow everything up with complete authority; there are a few frayed edges here and there

    The film is not perfect, although few, if any, are.

    The tapestry is afflicted now and again with something that marrs the intricate weaving. This is most bothersome to me in the final moments of the duel on Mustafar: Lucas compounds an already tenuous idea ("lava surfing") by requesting that ILM add a blue shield effect around the platforms (ruining the delicate visual composition of the frame and the believability of the effects work, I think).

    I think that one of the reasons that the ?lava surfing? works (for me, at least) is because Lucas sets up the visual device that is implemented specifically in the duel much earlier in the film with the introductory shots of Mustafar and the various floating platforms ? that accustoms the viewer to the parameters of the visual and technological schema, making its reappearance later on seem natural and intrinsic. If the director had introduced us to the floating platforms at a dramatically crucial juncture of the film, then it might have undermined the emotional importance of the scene itself.

    TESB doesn't have such transgressions. I think it's still right to hail TESB's second half as superior to ROTS', but considering Lucas didn't direct Episode V, it is still possible to answer your question with a firm "yes".

    I don?t really want to get into an ESB vs. ROTS argument here; I was more concerned about the mechanics of Lucas? filmmaking in the latter film, and how it applies to his work as a whole.

    The reason I chose to invoke ESB was because I think it?s the only other episode in the cycle to attain the deep emotional power and visionary scope that is evident in ROTS. That said, I do feel ESB is the superior installment, though I would not want to do without either film.

    Anakin's tear on the balcony is accompanied with a piece of tremendous bombast, his immolation is capped with strings that operatically rise and fall in a striking "attack/decay" rhythm and his wife's subsequent death/funeral and his own submission to the Vader persona are done with a pious solemnity I could never have imagined before watching the film.

    You make some excellent observations ? it is at these points that the picture deepens into what I have recently described as an epic weeper; the imagery evokes a rich, melodramatic feel that is actually quite genuine ? in other words, the film has earned the right to be emotionally affecting, and its final transpirations do not feel artificially manipulative or entrenched in gimmickry. The images have an emotional potency whose implications linger in the mind long after the film has ended.

    The aural heart complements the visual brain -- in short, great Star Wars always comes from a fusion of the two, and that's exactly what we have here.

    There isn?t much in the way of sub
     
  10. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Tyranus said:

    The first SW picture is, for me, not terribly interesting in terms of its interpersonal conflict ? it is a great movie, to be sure, and a lot of fun, but I don?t find it engaging on the terms of its dramatic apparatus. That is always something that I have tried to get around ? in terms of technicalities, the picture?s staccato rhythms and chimerical abandon are wonderful to behold, and the film itself is a lean piece of spectacle moviemaking, but for whatever reason, I find some of its human dimensions lacking.

    I concur completely. Ben dies halfway through, and though it's apparent he and Vader have a history together, we didn't get to see that history until recently. ;)

    As much as I like DOTF in TPM, I find The Duel in ROTS to be better both in choreography (minus some awkward cuts) and because of the emotional context. Not to mention, in TPM we have a fairly passive, sterile technological environment in the Theed Palace, whilst in ROTS, Anakin and Obi-Wan are fighting at the gates of hell.

    Lucas' penultimate moment, at least for every duel in the Saga, comes when Anakin and Obi-Wan grab each other's arms, the lava splashes in the background, and the music soars - the only moment that might top this is when Luke cuts off Vader's hand in ROTJ.
     
  11. CJedi72

    CJedi72 Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Sep 29, 2005
     
  12. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    [face_laugh]

    Welcome.

    That, too. :p

    I see entirely what you're saying -- and that establishing shot does indeed point ominously to Anakin's (and, for a time, Obi Wan's) fate. But the surfing sequence still LOOKS somewhat silly and clumsy to me.

    Words to live for.

    I think the fundamental difference between Star Wars: A New Hope and all subsequent entries is that the latter are both emotionally and intellectually satisfying to some degree. The original film is a carefully crafted and invigorating motion picture -- but when it's over, it's over. Every other movie seems t
     
  13. Gobi-1

    Gobi-1 Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 22, 2002
    I agree with the comment that if Lucas had another 6 months Attack of the Clones would have been perfect. It's strange but until Sith came out AOTC was my favorite but I don't know if it's the brilliance of Sith or just the fact that I've watched AOTC too many times but I can see the flaws now and I think it has to do with the fact that it was a bit of a rush job. Lucas spent 5 years working on The Phantom Menace and it shows and it is an extremely well crafted film.

    Lucas has admitted that he when he took a well deserved European vacation after Menace came out that he pretty much ignored writting the script for Episode II. He got way behind and had to call Jonathan Hale to bail him out. It's pretty clear the script for Clones was not all there as important critical scenes (Anakin and Palpatine, Dooku and Obi-Wan) were not filmed until pick-ups.

    Clones is still a great film but I think that a re-edit would improve it dramatically. Editing down some of the overlong action scenes (the droid factor, arena monsters) and adding back some character scenes (Padme's family, more Dooku/separtists) and extending some others (Clone Wars, the duels) and letting John Williams rescore would smooth some of the choppiness.

    All of Sith's running time is cinematic magic.
     
  14. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I love ROTS, especially the second half. It's brilliant. I'd still put the second half of TESB just ahead of it though. Just. For me, the climax of ROTS is just a bit too rushed. I think this effect was largely intended, but I think it goes slightly too far. I also find the lava surfing to be a bit of a spoiler. It looks a bit unrealistic and just falls into the old trap of trying really hard to be really spectacular, when really gritty and intense is more the order ofthe day. I can't find similar fault in the end of TESB.
     
  15. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Nicely said.
     
  16. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I really like your signature Cryogenic. I think "the fantastic Ian McDiarmid" has summed it up beautifully.
     
  17. CJedi72

    CJedi72 Jedi Youngling star 4

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    Sep 29, 2005
    I like this topic, and it is very interesting debate. But I have to say again, is it a coincidence that many feel this is Lucas best hour of filmaking, or for me personaly, his finest hour of the PT correlate with all the red meat of the PT?

    I reiterate, I love the last hour of ROTS, but the more I think about how everything is shown on screen, as a SW fan, how could any of us have hated it? I mean here are the things everyone of us wanted answered before '99 once Anakin turns:

    -The duel on this lava planet
    -Yoda vs Sidious
    -The twins are born and are sent to their new families
    -Jedi begin to get extinct
    -The fate of Anakins Wife
    -The building of Vader
    -The setup of the Empire
    -Yoda & Kenobi go into exile

    Now as I said before, I love this last hour, and do think ROTS is the best prequel, but upon further inspection, wasn't this a no brainer? Just say Lucas had one setup movie, and Anakin turns halfway through Episode II, and all these plot points were given 3 hours instead of 1, would it be better?

    My whole point is, and I hope fans respond to this, do we love what Lucas did, or do we love what is put on screen, because this is the stuff we waited 6 years for? I really like ROTS, and enjoy the last hour, but I think whatever Lucas put up on screen, I was going to atleast like.

    Upon further inspection of these key plot points, and remember we are saying this is his BEST filmaking, so we are holding this to a high standard, I have to take issue that this is great filmaker, and I think it is good/to really good filmaking:

    -Anakin/ObiWan duel: Did it meet anyones expectations? I really liked this duel, but it could have been longer, it shouldn't have been intercut, it loses steam in the middle, gains the drama right near the end to save the fight, and I think misses out on some great dialogue. Be honest, was anybody expecting more cutthroat dialogue then what occured in the movie? B

    -Sidious/Yoda duel: This one exceeded my expectations. Without the editing issue, this was really good, it had good trashtalk, great settings in the senate, and really showed their power, to me THIS is the duel, and in a sense eclipsed the duel on Mustafar. A-

    -The Twins being born: This is the one where I feel just seeing the images of the kids saves Lucas from an average handling of this subject. The babies are named within a split second of being born, the way the names are delivered just seems to comes off really bad by Portman. Then both of them being born together brings up the plot point of how Leia remembers her mom, and Luke doesn't. Now many will bring up the force memories argument, and many will think it is B.S., but any new viewer gonna pick up force memories without going on the internet? C-

    The fate of the twins & being sent to the families: This could have been dramatic, but we get an average scene here: Bail takes Leia cause they always wanted to adopt, Yoda says to Kenobi take Luke to Owen, end of story. Maybe make a conflict between Yoda & Kenobi that Leia shouldn't go to Organa or something, that would tie in nicely why Kenobi feels Luke is our last hope in ESB, and Yoda says, "No, there is another." The twins being shown as the ending montage is very nice, and that is done well, but the cleverly laid out plans to hide these kids from Vader & Emperor are not that clever. C+

    -The extinction of the jedi: Order 66, very well done, great music, but why this isn't as great as it should be: do we really know about any of these jedis? Do we even know all their names that die on screen? The first image of Order 66 that comes to me is that the conehead guy is dead!

    I think this scene suffers from Lucas not taking time in Episode I & II, to get us to know these jedis alittle bit more personally. I am not saying show us all 100 jedi by name, but Lucas should have gotten us to know personally 4-5 other jedi other than Mace, Yoda, Kenobi, and Anakin, and those should have been used in Order 66. I felt bad for them in that scene, but I never really knew them, so the dr
     
  18. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    Thank you. I had to cut it down to make it fit. This is the full quotation (from here): "I have a great admiration for George Lucas. I like him as a person. He's very serious and gentle. These films are very well-intentionned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films."

    More brilliant comments from the ever brilliant CJedi72.

    There's definitely some of that at work.

    But I think Lucas also does some great things with that "red meat". (Though, as always, his biggest asset is not himself -- it's John Williams).

    Probably not. But that's rather academic. I see exactly what you're saying here -- "give him more canvas and let's see if he can fill it half as well!" -- but one of the reasons that the final hour works so well is its inherent rapidity and cascading sense of tragedy. This urgency would not have come across as well if the same events played out over three hours split between two movies rather than one hour within the same picture.

    This was not the only flawed part -- but it was the only part that let me down. What you said about the dialogue is a perfect bullseye: I wanted and expected more. There's ultimately something missing in this sequence. I've watched it half a dozen times or more and the feeling never changes.

    Absolutely.

    This is the only part of the final hour, along with Anakin's immolation, that I hold to be flawless.

    Incidentally: what do you think of the immolation? Or are you holding that to be part of the duel? I tend to view it as something of a separate entity. This is one of the most powerful moments in the saga for me. For that one minute, Lucas doesn't blink or falter once. Every cut, every glance, every line, every scream, every visual effect, every sound effect, every musical note is absolutely perfect.

    The arbitariness of the naming is moderately irksome. But that's about all. I think this is an extremely visually
     
  19. Tyranus_the_Hutt

    Tyranus_the_Hutt Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Nov 14, 2004
    I think that opinion comes from seeing ANH as part of the saga, and to me that is where the movie is at its weakest, especially as the #4 movie now, not the first, when it was just the OT.

    No, I disagree. The lack of compelling human dimensions is something I have always found problematic with the film, despite my immense ? and undiminished ? affection for it. I was born well after the original films had finished their theatrical runs, but even seeing ANH as a child, long before the prequels came around, I did not find its emotional and interpersonal qualities terribly interesting, even if I lacked the vocabulary to give shape to some of my abstract critical thoughts. That is not to say that I dislike the picture ? quite the contrary, actually ? I think it?s a magnificent entertainment, and in many ways a landmark film, but dramatically, I have always considered the film to be lacking in some respects.

    The movie was not made to sit smack dab in the middle of the saga, and I can see where people get sidetracked in its basic themes.

    I do look at these six films as two tonally disparate trilogies which constitute an overarching narrative construct, and yet I maintain that ANH is the most elemental vision of SW ? it is unencumbered by side issues, overwrought storytelling flourishes, tangential sub-plots, and so on. The film represents Lucas' vision in its purest form.

    The movie is basic in every nature, but that is where its dramatics are at its best. Every character is a typical movie character: The farmboy, The Wizard, The Scoundrel, The Princess, and The Evil Bad Guy in a mask, that's all it was in 1977.

    Yes, but the addition of further films in the cycle (beginning with ESB) gave the characters a more mythic resonance than that which was encompassed in ANH?s most elemental form.

    Now watching the movie in that context, this movie is a true classic, as it is a perfect standalone movie. It begins with a bang in the first 5 minutes to grab into this world,

    I can?t begin to imagine how remarkable it must have been for audiences in the 1970s to have seen the sprawling expanse of the Star Destroyer as it crawled across the screen in pursuit of the Tantive IV; the film?s opening is one of the most dramatic and powerful in the history of cinema, and it remains unmatched by any of the subsequent installments in the cycle.

    and then it slows down for the next 30-40 minutes, and lets each character take them to the next to eventually fullfill their destiny.

    The film?s exploratory tone during this stretch of movie, which some people don?t like, is actually one of its strengths, in my opinion. There is a genuine sense of wonderment that Lucas successfully develops alternately through observation and whimsy.

    Each character is introduced very subtely, and has a unique touch to them.

    Actually, I don?t think the film is at all subtle (that isn?t a criticism, by the way); the character introductions are accompanied by particular bits of orchestration that suggests his or her underlying nature. It is, as Lucas once put it, not unlike the structure to "Peter and the Wolf."

    Kenobi is introduced through is 'howl' to scare the sandpeople. Luke is introduced through the SW theme, as he is still a naive boy taking orders from his foster parents.

    Basically, Luke is an archetypal hero, and director Lucas positions him as our human entry-point into the film; Skywalker?s character traits are very straightforward and obvious, but that enables the viewer to project his or her own complexities onto him, thus deepening their involvement in the narrative.

    The movie has parts that a pure genius in writing.

    I think it?s the picture?s structure and mythological underpinnings that are its strength in terms of writing.

    Kenobi & Luke in talking about Lukes Father, The Force, The Empire, everything is explained, nothing specific, just enough to help you follow the story to keep you interested.

    Yes, those are all wonderful scenes.

    As Han S
     
  20. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    May 18, 2002
    Okay, you guys gotta break up the lengthy posts. 8-}

    Nice reading, but difficult, no?
     
  21. Jumpman

    Jumpman Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Sep 12, 2003
    Question for all:

    In that last hour of Episode III, which scene/sequence do you feel is the best in terms of filmmaking techniques and conveying the story the best?
     
  22. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    I love the juxtaposition of Padme's giving birth to the twins and then dying with Anakin's dying and giving birth to Vader; it's very Godfather-esque.

    Padme's Ruminations is up there, Order 66 is up there, and the Immolation Scene and the 4 Skywalker ending are all fantastic.

    But the Padme/Anakin birth/death scene is very jarring. Perhaps even jar-jarring. 8-} And it really works, down to the Polis Massa robots looking helpful and friendly, and the Coruscant robots looking scary.
     
  23. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    No one's forcing you to read it, Garthie. :p

    The Reader's Digest version will be out in, say... 2008. :D

    Difficult to say.

    I'll go for Anakin's immolation. It is shocking, harrowing, tragic and doesn't hold back. It'a also cleanly done with no unnecessary or excessive embellishments. There is no slow motion. No weepy choirs. No lengthy speeches. There is only a fallen Jedi and his former friend looking at each other with their own eyes for the last time. People were literally gasping in the cinema when this scene unfolded. Lucas hit every emotional and visceral beat. He even sounds a little cut up (pardon the pun) on the DVD commentary track: "Kinda gruesome... but necessary to get him into that suit" (those might not be the actual words -- but listen to how he says them). My favourite shot might be of Anakin helplessly crawling up the bank, almost with tears in his eyes, as he knows it's over and he's lost everything. The acting from both is incredibly heartfelt and real. The photography and effects work is flawless. The music is pitch perfect. Even the aggressive foley work adds an extra menace and brutality to the proceedings. This is a scene to remember.

    Perfectly said on all levels.

    Just to go off on a slight tangent: this may be one reason why people were generally less taken with Anakin Skywalker. His own journey is inherently more complex and darker. With Luke, as you rightly say, we are enabled -- and encouraged -- to project our own complexities, our own hopes and fears, onto him. This is the very essence of the character's archetypal appeal: he could be any of us. But Anakin, though full of human frailties, is less superficially likeable and more substansively distant. In Episode I, he is incredibly young and not as enjoyable a protagonist as Luke (mainly because he is even more naive and less empowered in an adult universe), and in Episode II, he is broody and withdrawn. We're meant to understand him and even be sympathetic -- but we're not meant to root for him.

    Now that summary is a keeper! (Hence the added emphasis). :)

     
  24. Garth Maul

    Garth Maul Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Cryo - the shot of Yoda crawling through the pipes is the only shot that takes me out of the moment, I agree they could have cut it, no matter how amazing the CGI is. ;)

    Otherwise, I found The Duel to be absolutely amazing when intercut with DOTF Yoda/Sidious, and even better once Yoda had left. I think it needed to be cut, although I wish they had kept in some of the great moves Ewan and Hayden had rehearsed. :(

    I'm really glad they didn't include the Dagobah scene in ROTS; not only did it interfere with the 4 Skywalker ending, it also leaves some mystery as to Yoda's whereabouts for those who will be viewing the Saga in numerical order in the future.
     
  25. Cryogenic

    Cryogenic Force Ghost star 5

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    Jul 20, 2005
    No. It's more of a no-way-around-it-flaw. I am not for its removal at all. It's a wonderful scene. I wouldn't want it cut. Yoda is humbled and forced to crawl ON HIS HANDS AND KNEES to escape. The fantastic visual symbolism of Lucas -- the kind, here at least, that anyone can get -- shines once again.

    The novel featured an interesting exchange I wish had made it:

    Obi Wan: Power is the flaw of arrogance.
    Anakin: You hesitate. The flaw of compassion.

    I agree with you on both counts.
     
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