Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?

perhaps I was not clear, obi can't beat dooku, for what ever reason. and the same can be said of anakin to obi wan.

just cause anakin beat dooku does not make anakin better then obi wan, and just because obi wan beat anikin does not mean that he is the best duelist. anakin just can't beat obi wan just as obi can't beat dooku.

neither is really any betterthen the other. obi wan is just better at finding his opponents weakness and exploiting it. which in most cases makes him a better duelist. the fact is they should never have had to fight each other. so it really is one of theose fights that the one with the ability to remain calm and not let the emotions of the day get in the way wins. since obi wan stays calm he wins.

 

I do'nt think it does prove Obi- Wan is a better fighter, 'cause you have off days you know? Although Obi did fight pretty good...mabybe Ani was having an off day.

 

Agreed. Although less powerful than Anakin, Dooku is a composed fighter and has a much better command of the Force than Anakin. That presents a much bigger problem for Obi-Wan. Dooku matches up poorly for Obi-Wan.

Not everyone may agree or relate, but i see it like looking at a matchup of a football game. Please bear w/ this analogy:

• Team 1: (Obi-Wan)This team is well-coached, plays great defense and limits its mistakes on offense to win.
• Team 2: (Anakin) This team is poorly coached, average defense, and a record-setting offense


• Team 3: (Dooku) Team is well-coached, average defense, and a good offense

You can see how each team would match up on the field. Team 1 would hang in and capitalize on Team 2's mistake, while Team 3 would not make such mistakes and its talent would overcome Team 1. Team 2 could do what Team 1 could not, score a lot of points, and beat Team 3 with its sheer offensive talent.

 

thanks revan! san deigo? weather must be real nice. dalevader i thought you were on anakin's side, that's why i didn't understand the example, now that you cleared it all up, your post makes alot of sense.

MORDOR are you saying that anakin could never take obi wan? that under any circumstance he would never be able to take him? i really disagree. dooku is more skilled than obi wan, this much is clear. anakin defeated dooku with no outside influence. i believe the same would happen to obi wan, in a duel with no outside influence anakin would win. anakin's duel with dooku proved who was more skille, the ending came after a rather dirty looking move on anakin's move, that was kind of a glide type attack (which looked awesome.) i just believe that the duel with dooku really proved which one of the two had more skill. now if you guys are of the opinion that obi wan would find a way to defeat anakin, i could see that, but just straight up saber skill, no that won't due, and has too much talent.

 

I am not saying every time but lets say 8 out of 10 obi wan takes him. I am not sauong that anakin is worse then obi wan I just think if those two fight obi wan will always find a way.


dooku 9 out of 10 beats obi wan. but again just because anakin beat him does not mean he beats obi wan.

I keep repeating my self but here goes again. if anakin keeps his cool, has no outside influences (no emotion whatsoever) flat ground perfect conditions then on a tecnical level he is most likly a better doulist. but that's not anakin.

one big difference between anakin and obi wan is anakin is a show off, he makes unneccessary moves because they look good, etc. obi wan is much more streight forward. not concerned with how many spins and twists and fancy moves. he just gets the job done.

sure he does them but he is keeping his eye on his ttarget at all times. sure anakin bails him out frequently I might add. but anakin can't stay focused on the task at hand.

the opening space battle actually reinforces this. the clones are getting shot down and obi wan has to remind anakin what they are there to do.

no one is denying anakins skill. these are two people who should never have to fight each other. they are best friends. so again any time thay would have to fight it would be anything but perfect circumstances. so there really is no way to be sure anakin could beat obi wan.

what would be a defeat of obi wan. does anaikin have to kill obi wan to be a victory. as we see in ANH that's not true. so what constituts anakin defeating obi wan. maming him like obi did to him?

obi wan left anakin alive does that cheapen his victory? if he had killed anakin would that make it more clear?

it's a fight to the death between these two. who ever comes out on top is the better dulest. in life and death situations people tend to be at their finest. if not thay are dead.

 

I keep repeating my self but here goes again. if anakin keeps his cool, has no outside influences (no emotion whatsoever) flat ground perfect conditions then on a tecnical level he is most likly a better doulist. but that's not anakin.

so he wasn't calm and collected in his fight with dooku? yes he was. you don't want to see anakin as the better duelist, he is though. he had just turned to the darkside, emotions were on fire, he wasn't in control at that point. "bring peace to MY new empire." do you remember this line? he says this, this is an indicaiton of his emotional state. he is everything but delerious. you just said......
ON A TECHNICAL LEVEL? yes he is a better duelist, when he is calm and collected and hasn't turned away from everything he has ever held dear, he is better than obi wan, plain and simple. against dooku there were no outside influences, just him and dooku, earlier obi wan was in too. obi wan was no match between the two, he was quickly discarded. on an even plain, no advantage to either combatant anakin bested dooku, after obi wan had been beaten twice by dooku, both times when dueling with no outside interference, no lava, no jumping to decide a duel. you just refuse to accept this. you keep saying anakin can't keep a level head. he does so when defeating an opponent who is proven to be more skilled than obi wan, in count dooku. those who say you can't use the dooku duel to justify anakin being better, are in denial. it was man to man, no river jumping, or decision making, just pure skill on the line in the dooku duel, anakin beats him, handily at that. you are saying that given these circumstances anakin would still lose, even after he defeats the same man who defeats obi wan twice, going head to head on skill alone. i just don't see the logic behind your stance. quite frankly there isn't much. when can you say obi wan out dueled someone in the PT? when? (besides GG, he was no match with a saber.) against maul he used QUI GON'S SABER. he defeated maul, and his strength in the force was shown, however this was not a good showing on his dueling prowess. maul out dueled two opponents and killed the master. he then proceeds to nearly kill the padawan, but while he has the upperhand, with obi wan dangling from the ledge, he gets cocky, MUCH LIKE ANAKIN DID, and doesn't just finish the job, this gives obi wan time to focus himself and prepare for his final strike. that is in no way shape or form proving that he was better than maul at that time, if you think other wise i cannot continue debating this with you. against dooku where there is no outside influence either time they face off, obi wan is beaten, handily at that. anakin does what obi wan couldn't either time they faced off, he beats the man straight up man to man, just a room and those two dueling. you can't even accept this, you can't even admit that obi wan was better that day, but anakin was more skilled, yes obi wan would find a way to win, but it wouldn't be based on superior saber skill, this much is clear.

 

Mordor, no way Obi Wan takes Anakin 8 out of 10 times. If anything its the opposite. Its a proven fact that Anakin is more powerful,and better with a saber.
The fact of the matter is Anakin was a "Bad Guy" and Obi Wan is the "Good Guy". And in Star Wars we all know what happens to the bad guy.
IMO, Anakin owns Obi Wan 9 out of 10 times. They just happened to show the one time that Anakin loses on screen. For if they didn't there would be no OT.

 

I cant stand all these people saying that Anakin is the better duelist but he made a stupid mistake. The only reason you would lose a duel is because you made a mistake. The better side is the one who makes the least mistakes or capitalises on the mistakes made by the opponent. Experience wipes out mistakes. Obi Wan made the least mistakes and capitalised on Anakins mistake i.e. Jumping right at Obi Wan. Therefore Obi Wan is the better duelist.

 

The outcome of a single duel proves nothing....Don't forget Obi Wan lost to Vader too.
Vader at least was alive after the first duel. Obi Wan can't say the same. Ya, ya. I know "Obi Wan sacrificed himself. GOD!!". Blah Blah. He sacrificed himself in defeat..He knew he was no match for a seasoned Sith Lord the calibur of Vader.

 

I think you missed the entire plot of the OT if thats why you think Obi Wan sacrficed himself.

 

That is the reason he sacrificed himself. Also for Luke but that was secondary. I'm basing this on the novel for episode 4. Since only in the novels does it say what the characters are thinking. He went into the Death Star to confront Vader. Then he saw Luke tryin to escape, and then sacrificed himself. His original plan was to kill Vader(at least thats what it said in the novel)but then relized he was outmatched(hence the "Your powers are weak old man" quote by Vader.) So he gave up for Lukes benefit. So I guess the novel missed the plot for the OT as well?

 

Fine you might be correct (even though I could go futher but I rekon we would both hold our ground) The topic is if Obi Wan is a better duelist than Anakin not is Obi Wan a better duelist than Vader. It kinda depends on when you believe Anakin turns but I believe it is when he has lost the duel.

 

Well, the fact that Anakin is Vader when "The Duel" goes down means we can't base our opinions on that fight at all then. On that note, the only thing we can base it on is the fact that Obi Wan lost to Dooku twice and Anakin beat Dooku once. So the only way that Obi Wan is a better dueler than Anakin is if you think Grievous or Darth Maul would have beat Anakin(Highly Doubtful IMO.)

 

Well A) We cant disregarde the duel because that is what the question is actually asking and
B) Anakin only beat Dooku with the help of Obi Wan
C) In AOTC Anakin comes out of that battle much worse than Obi Wan
D) Obi Wan is the only jedi to face a light saber weilding foe and come out the better (in the PT)

 

Obi-wan lost a Duel to Dooku ONCE. He lost with Anakin the other time.

I believe the Obi-Wan who bested Vader would have Faired much better against Dooku.

How did Anakin learn his offensive style? He beat Dooku because he moved so quickly the Sith couldn't use his force powers.

Look at Rob Roy...The better duelist didn't win.

 

Hang on. After thinking about this more I believe that this is the wrong place to discuss this topic. If the topic was 'Is Obi Wan a better duelist than Anakin?" Then sure you can bring up dooku. But not here. This is "Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?". I believe the answer is no. I dont believe a single battle can prove who is the better duelist.

 

In the fights against Dooku Anakin faired better against him in both fights.(although he did lose an arm.)In ROTS Dooku had Anakin knocked down the he threw Obi Wan. After that it was all Anakin.
I just want to say that finally I'm having a civilized debate without us attacking each other on the boards. So many times it turns into the posters atatcking each other with comments that have nothing to do with the thread itself.
Also, I wanna say that Obi Wan is the sh%#.
All my life i've always cheered for the villain. So on that note i may be alittle biased on this topic. but i do feel like there is alot of ammo for both our arguments so keep it going =).

 

I guess I love Obi Wan too much to see that VAder is better but yeah I can see Vaders side of the argument.

 

Anakin may be more powerful not smarter than Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan won because he used his oppenent's weaknesses to his advantage, uses the environment to his advantage, is wiser, has a greater knowledge and understanding of the force, as I said before is smarter, is stronger mentally and emotionally, doesn't let his emotions get in the way, has more experience, and knows Anakin as a dueler. People have also said Anakin was calm and collected against Dooku in ROTS but even there he let his emotions get in the way even though he won and the same goes for AOTC but both him and Obi-Wan lost there. Dooku may be a better dueler than Obi-Wan and Anakin a better dueler than Dooku but Obi-Wan just matches up to Anakin better than he does against Dooku.

 

yaddimameen posted

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I keep repeating my self but here goes again. if anakin keeps his cool, has no outside influences (no emotion whatsoever) flat ground perfect conditions then on a tecnical level he is most likly a better doulist. but that's not anakin.

so he wasn't calm and collected in his fight with dooku? yes he was. you don't want to see anakin as the better duelist, he is though. he had just turned to the darkside, emotions were on fire, he wasn't in control at that point. "bring peace to MY new empire." do you remember this line? he says this, this is an indicaiton of his emotional state. he is everything but delerious. you just said......
ON A TECHNICAL LEVEL? yes he is a better duelist, when he is calm and collected and hasn't turned away from everything he has ever held dear, he is better than obi wan, plain and simple. against dooku there were no outside influences, just him and dooku, earlier obi wan was in too. obi wan was no match between the two, he was quickly discarded. on an even plain, no advantage to either combatant anakin bested dooku, after obi wan had been beaten twice by dooku, both times when dueling with no outside interference, no lava, no jumping to decide a duel. you just refuse to accept this. you keep saying anakin can't keep a level head. he does so when defeating an opponent who is proven to be more skilled than obi wan, in count dooku. those who say you can't use the dooku duel to justify anakin being better, are in denial. it was man to man, no river jumping, or decision making, just pure skill on the line in the dooku duel, anakin beats him, handily at that. you are saying that given these circumstances anakin would still lose, even after he defeats the same man who defeats obi wan twice, going head to head on skill alone. i just don't see the logic behind your stance. quite frankly there isn't much. when can you say obi wan out dueled someone in the PT? when? (besides GG, he was no match with a saber.) against maul he used QUI GON'S SABER. he defeated maul, and his strength in the force was shown, however this was not a good showing on his dueling prowess. maul out dueled two opponents and killed the master. he then proceeds to nearly kill the padawan, but while he has the upperhand, with obi wan dangling from the ledge, he gets cocky, MUCH LIKE ANAKIN DID, and doesn't just finish the job, this gives obi wan time to focus himself and prepare for his final strike. that is in no way shape or form proving that he was better than maul at that time, if you think other wise i cannot continue debating this with you. against dooku where there is no outside influence either time they face off, obi wan is beaten, handily at that. anakin does what obi wan couldn't either time they faced off, he beats the man straight up man to man, just a room and those two dueling. you can't even accept this, you can't even admit that obi wan was better that day, but anakin was more skilled, yes obi wan would find a way to win, but it wouldn't be based on superior saber skill, this much is clear.

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I 'll try to address as much as possable.

yes emotions were on fire. he actually reached out and choked his wife, he tried to kill the one reason he turned in the first place. "if I can't have you no one can" P.O.V. It is obi wan who checks on her. anakin never mentions her again till he wakes up in the suit. so yeah his emotions are through the roof. keep in mind obi wan is hurting right now too. as you or chosen have stated before this all gives obi wan the advantage because he knows how to deal with this sort of thing better. well that is a facter into the better fighter.

I will concede that anakin is relitivly calm during the second dooku battle. but to say there were no outside influences... he allowed him self to murder. he had disabled dooku. he could be taken prisnor, bartterd with etc, thay could have made a safer exit with him alive. "negotioator" obi wan would have gotten them out with a livin

 

I love how all of the Anakin supporters think that if the duel had been anywhere but Mustafar that Anakin would have won and won easily.
I've seen several posts stating things like,"well, if the duel was on a ship or neutral terrain Anakin would have wiped the floor with Obi-Wan etc etc. Well, in the ROTS movie that I saw, the duel was in the Mustafar control room for quite some time. This control room was quite similar to rooms and corriders of many of the ships we've seen in the GFFA, as well as offices and other rooms that have been shown as well.

So why was Anakin not able to simply overwhelm Kenobi in this envireonment? Could it be that Obi-Wan is actually a formidible opponent? And don't come back with "well, Obi-Wan was running away and that's why Anakin couldn't take him out". If Anakin could easily beat Obi-Wan in a "neutral" setting, then the fight should never have made it out of the control room.

 

Obi-wan lost to Dooku in the first fight, because the Sith Lord was a better fighter than he was. Plain and simple. The second fight, Dooku managed to get in a couple of Force shoves on Obi-wan. One of which was being in the grip of a Force grab and then flung across the room. The reason he lasts longer against Anakin is because the latter is not at his peak level of power, nor does he have the same skill and sneakyness that Dooku did. Anakin's just brute power. He doesn't quite have the same style and grace that Dooku did. Nor the experience, which often counts. Anakin wasn't as good as he could've been in AOTC, but was much better in ROTS. Also, he stops holding back.

At the very end, it all comes down to Anakin being overtly confident of his abilities. Note the final exchange between them.

Obi-wan: "It's over Anakin, I have the high ground."

Anakin: "You underestimate my power."

Obi-wan: "Don't do it, Anakin."

Anakin's arrogance, combined with his contempt for Obi-wan's lectures, is what led to that statement. He's tired of Obi-wan thinking that he (Anakin) is not as powerful as he likes to think he is. He's tired of Obi-wan thinking that Anakin cannot do something, because he's not as skilled or powerful, as he is. More aptly put, Anakin wanted to make Obi-wan eat his words.

 

Contempt for Obi Wan's lectures and the desire to make a name for himself. He was so drunk with arrogance and so inexperienced with knowledge of the force that there is NO WAY he could have ever won that duel AT THAT TIME.
Sure he is far more talented and a WAYYYY better swordsman than Obi Wan and we could argue a number of other points but the fact is, the planets must have been aligned in Obi Wan's favor plus his ability to control his fear(he mentioned earlier int he movie that Anakin was a far better Jedi than he could ever hope to be)was what won the duel. I would have been scared ****less knowing that I had to fight a man that killed a Sith lord that bested me TWICE.

 

Obi-wan took out Maul..also a Sith. He didn't grumble about not getting respect like Anakin.
Anakin was unstable, everyone knew this...especially Obi-wan. He just thought he wasn't unstable enough to go to the dark side.

As far as bitch slaps go...that dooku move on Obi-wan was one of the biggest ever...even if Palps warned him...sigh.

 

I know this is off subject but Palps seemed to be following the Duel in EP III with Dooku TOO closely. I thought he was following Obi Wan with his eyes, especially when Dooku dropped the balcony on Obi Wan.