Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?

people have been jumping all over me for even suggesting that sidious was in some way involved in that fight. I still can't help but feel that it is more then a coincidence that the leader of both sides is in the room. is a sith lord and has a plan to convert anakin. the ship is called the invisable hand.

 

I dont agree with the basketball analogy simply because there more at stake than losing a game. So really the analogy doesnt go far enough. in fact, there isnt really an appropriate ananlogy because its rare that one's life is at stake. I guess you could use war, but it rarely a one-on-one situation.

After the American Revolution, you really couldnt say the Colonies were better than the British cause Britian was a world power. But for that specific situtation America was better.

As for people who minimize Anakin's arrogance, any trait you possess that causes you to become a quadrapaligic is not a minor flaw. For all his power, he became reduced to a cocky meat head

 

I saw the movie for the 11th time on Friday and he is definitely concentrating on the fight and making facial expressions as Dooku is handling Obi Wan, I don't believe Dooku to be strong enough to control that many aspects of the duel alone. Obi Wan was definitely holding his own in the fight and seemed to be doing just as well as Anakin

 

I do want to tread lightly on that subject it is off topic.

obi wan was beaten by dooku.

 

DARTHMORDOR DARTHMAGI

Yeah, definetly tread lightly on the whole "Palps helped Dooku" thing. I just wanted to say that I do agree that Dooku was getting some help from Sidious. I'll just leave it that. I've posted my arguments in the thread for that topic, and some of the people in this thread were some of the ones I argued with.

For the record, I readily admit that Dooku, for whatever reasons, is simply too much for Obi-Wan.

 

People are correct when they say that Obi-Wan was better than Anakin ON THIS DAY. After the events that transpired before the fight, Anakin was nothing more than a raging bull. Obi-Wan was able to take advantage of this and use Anakins arrogance against him, a credit to Obi-Wan.

However this one fight far from proves that Obi-Wan is better. I don't know how people can say this when it was Anakins fault that he lost. It was his choice alone, he could either jump right at Obi-Wan or he could jump anywhere else on the shore. His psychological state at that particular time caused him make the wrong mistake. Obi didn't use a mind trick, it was Anakins fault. Also mind that Anakin was controlling the fight up until this point.

Everything we see and hear before this fight makes it obvious that Anakin is way better than Obi(and quotes from people associated with the movie). Anakin has superior skill and power, but on this day he couldn't control his emotions(which had never been that extreme before).

 

obi wan had a duty to preform. he has been on countless missions similer to this. he got the job done just as he has many times before. the circumstances of his victory are irrelevent.

if tampa bay plays green bay in the snow does tampa blame the snow for their loss? if thay win is it a bragging right because it did snow? is the victory called into doupt if conditions are not perfect?


obi wan states right at the begging of the duel that anakin is the cause of all his problems.

so even in obi's mind anakin cannot win he has defeated himself. still the matter at hand to actually make it happen.

by the way what about the confrence room? that seemed like level ground, normal conditions. anakin could not beat obi in there. and to say that obi backed out of the room, fine into worse conditions. walking backwards on a pipe!! anakin could have force pushed him off with out following!!

 

MORDOR posted this in the sidious>obi wan thread.

ROTJ sidious is going to kill luke.

yes he is.

uses force lightning.

yes he does.

constany reinforces his opinion that vader can never be turned back to the good.

yes he does.

very over confident.

yes he is.

back turned to vader.

yes it was.

vader picks him up and tosses him off the balcony.

yes he does

does this make vader more powerful then sidious?

no, not even close.

does this negate his victory over the darkside?

no not at all.

does it cheapen his return to the good?

no not at all.

vader took advantage of sidious overconfidence and killed him. so by th eobi wan is lucky crowd vader was just lucky sidious back was turned.

just like obi wan, he was not more powerful , or skilled, but he used anakin's overconfidence to defeat him. and there you have it, case en point.

 

I've already posted my opinion several times in this thread, but " Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin? ' but after 43 pages, it appears it does not. lol.

 

is it really about skill, or strategy?, ObiWan knew he could not keep going toe to toe with Anakin, so he jumped onto the lava bank. Which gave him the advantage. Anakin, being consumed by his Ego and hate, chose to ignore his inferior position and attacks anyway, and we all know how that ends. So i would say that Anakin is the more powerful force user but Obi, is the best Dueler , because he outwitted Anakin , and duels can be fought with brains as well as swords.

 

yiddaamen

hay no need to get angry here. this is all in fun. I have said how much I respect anaikin. I have said that dooku bested obi wan twice.

I have explained my pinion very clearly that I do belive when fighting each other obi wan is the better doulist. but I also belive in a general sense that anakin could and does take opponents thatwould give obi wan a run for his money. I have not jumped on a band wagon suggesting that sidious helped dooku. I mearly stated the circumstances of teh situation had a lot of coinidences, which could hold a deeper meaning. I have also avoided making it a subjet on this board because it is not relevent.

the other post about vader and sidious was just playing devils advocate it was not meant to be taken too seriously.

my point of obi wan using qui gons saber being a rediculus point for you to harp ion is how many times did we see anakin lose his saber. it's sort of an in joke for the jedi. they lose them they build new ones. the point is maul forgot the guy he was fighting was a jedi, he forgot that the other saber was on the ground, he forgot to just kill his enemy. obi wan seized an oppretunity and killed a sith. as a padawan.

sure he was in a difficult situation but instead of giving up he found a solution. which is what he does in all his duels.


I have not gotten personal. I have never stooped to refering to anybodys opinion as fanboyish or pathetic. and I don't now. I have respected you opinion and countered with my own. if you wish to cease the debate so be it. I for one have really enjoyed this and dispite our differences have looked forward to your rebuttles.

 

If you think about it it does indeed make sense
that Anakin was beaten by Obi-Wan since he
was his master and the one who trained
him and was familliar with most of
his moves and tricks.
He wasn´t necessarily better but I think Anakin
was too upset and emotional during the duel
and simply wasn´t able to focus his
actions and thoughts as well as
he normally would have.

 

I don't know that you can say that Obi-wan was a better dueler then Anakin, even though he won the battle. Really, I think it comes down to the fact Obi-wan was a better strategist than Anakin. Strategy is a warfare term that basically means to gain an advantage over your opponent. That doesn't mean that your opponent isn't powerful or mighty. It just means you're going to use what you've got to gain an advantage.

IMO Obi-wan did this when he saw that he could use Anakin's rage against him. Some posters have a problem with the "high ground" end of the fight, but I loved it. To me, it was just kinda like "Man, he's giving him his last lesson here". He knew that Anakin wanted to be all powerful and was not going to told what to do. When he said that it was a bittersweet "c'mon sucker" moment to me. Again, that's just to me.

Obi-wan used what he had. Better dueler or not, I do not know. But I do know that he was a better strategist. And that lent itself to many situtations... including the fight with Darth Vader

 

obi wan in that final moment knew he had won, knew what anakin would try and he gave him an out.

ever see searching for bobby fischer?

the kid sees when the "better" player makes a mistake. and instead of just jumping on it and kicking the kids butt, he offers a draw. obi wan did the same thing here. saw the mistake anakin made and gave him a chance to walk away. same results in both films.

 

I had forgetten that about Bobby Fisher. Watched it when I was young. But yeah good analogy. And i didn't realize Valorum was the guy from Superman 2

 

MORDOR i respect your opinion as well, i for one thought that you were making the first move in attacking me, and my view. the way you worded it made it sound like you did not repect my view, which puzzled me, because you are normally very well versed. based on your prevvious post i take it that i was wrong and for that i apologize. but i still disagree with your stance.

anyways, i still don't see how obi wan comes acros as the better duelist, against maul he lost his saber and was at maul's mercy. do you dispute this? against anakin, much like the batman begins example, he is in the same position as batman, he is outmatched when it comes to skill, but much like batman his level hea dlalows him to defeat his opponent. it is very clear in batman begins who the better combatant is, just like in THE DUEL it is clear who is more talented, obi wan keep ing a level head doesn't add up to being the superior duelist. by using your logic (not in a disrespectful manner.) by using your logic, sidious is more talented and morepowerful than yoda. he won the duel and it doesn't matter how. this is flawed, i am sorry it just is. yoda had cirumstances surrounding his duel, and he was no table to overcome these circumstances. which is why he failed. anakin was the sole reason obi wan got the opportunity to strike when he did. this is where your arguement is flawed. anakin jumped, obi wan did make him jump, anakin chose to jump, he chose to use his ablities after obi wan told him differently, it was anakin's decision to jump and no one else's. this cannot determine accurately which one of the two is the better dueilst, it just can't, it doesn't make any sense. we saw what anakin could do when he duels on level even groun. he is unmatched, even by dooku, who is more than a match for obi wan. obi wan on the other hand defeats anakin after anakin makes a fateful choice to trust his own abilities when he is clearly in an inferior position. obi wan when dueling on skill alone is simply not as good as people make him out to be. he is out matched by maul, yes he kills him, i am not arguing that, but it is very clear as to which one is the better duelist. against dooku obi wan loses twice based on skill alone. and now you are going to say that even though he has been out fought in two of the three movies, hell even in the third movie, that he was better than anakin when there is much more than skill involved, it just doesn't add up.

 

but my point is that by your logic anikin is only a winner on level ground if it is anything other then the perfect situation he does not stand a chance. I don't belive that. I belive anikin is highly skilled. I belive under any circumstance he can take just about any opponet. but that fact is obi knows him better then he knows him self. so obi will beat him flat ground high ground, moving ground.

the only time we see obi wan lose his saber is to a sith lord. we see anakin lose his three times. twice to lesser opponents. one a bounty hunter, two a freaking convayer belt.

I take that back obi did lose his fighting grivious but he still killed him using grivious own weapon. so that says he is more then capable of adapting to any situation which makes him a fantastic warrior.

if anakin is only good in a void then obi has provn many times he is the better.



edit

sorry if my way eariler post sounded like an attack, I was a bit hungover when I wrote it.

 

Obi-wan Kenobi is like Indiana Jones...he finds cool and iventive ways to beat his opponents. He also adds witty comments sometimes when he beats them like with General Grevious "How incivilized" lol. Thats what I always thought GL portrayed Obi-wan in his prime as a swashbukler. Anakin was stronger and more powerful, but Obi-wan got the golden treasure from the tomb while evoiding the traps and a huge boulder lol .

 

no no you have missed my point entirely. i think anakin could take just about anybody, in any situation. what you are saying is that obi wan is the better duelist, no he isn't. anakin made the choice to jump, if he doesn't make the choice he wins, it's that simple. that is what i have been trying to say. he engineer's his own fall, he is the main reason he loses the duel, because of his own overconfidence. i am too tired for this, i'll be back in a little bit.


P.S. don't worry about it, i guess i acted to brash, didn't give you the benefit of the doubt, i should have known better it was my fault, and again i apologize.

 

no hard feelings.

you were just acting like anakin!

anakin does make his own choices, BAD ONES
thats what the whole saga is about anakins bad choices and the consequences. the ot is about somebody being face withthe same choices and making good ones.
so yeah I agree with you there. and making bad choices in the face of a supierior warrior means you get hacked to peices.

I gotta take a break too be beack tommarrow

 

Actually Yaddimean what your example of Batman reveals is that he wins because he does whatever it takes to win. It's like in his rematch with the character Prometheus in the pages of JLA (having had his ass handed to him the first time). He doesn't beat him hand to hand but conveniently rewires his system. When asked by a fellow JLA'er if he was seen cheating (jokingly) he responds with "No, winning." Batman isn't above cheating.

Obi-wan in my view isn't a better duelist in general. He was better on that day and in those circumstances because he had to be. If Anakin had defeated Obi-wan the galaxy was doomed and the prophecy would have been null and void. As we see in the culmination of the trilogy destiny in the Star Wars universe is pretty absolute. Obi-wan had providence on his side and won the duel. He didn't win due to his skill but to a dumb decision on Anakin's part. If Anakin had slipped on a banana peel Obi-wan fans would have argued that it took great skill to posistion Anakin to where he would slip on the peel.

 

He didn't win due to his skill but to a dumb decision on Anakin's part. If Anakin had slipped on a banana peel Obi-wan fans would have argued that it took great skill to posistion Anakin to where he would slip on the peel.

VERY TRUE!!

 

that was my point calloway. i agree completely. i am an avid comic book collector i have a collection that rivals some small shops. batman has been defeated in combat many times, but he always comes out on top in the end. (well bane was a different story.) batman has never been the best fighter. he has the will to win, and that is what makes him great. this is the same for obi wan, but people tend to want to make obi wan out to be this unstoppable warrior, that has a defensive style that is inpenetrable, this is completely false.

 

To quote Will Ferrel as GW on SNL and tie in with my earlier post, he has great strategery