Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by HagentheSith, Jan 15, 2005.

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  1. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I guess what I mean is why the compassion for Anakin? Yes, he was a friend, but is his spirit so pure so as not to negatively influence the overall Force?
  2. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Sure he's done evil things, but of course his spirit is pure. The best thing you can do in life is notice your mistakes and change yourself for the better. Anakin did that ... okay it took him 20 years but he still did it.

    :)
  3. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    Right, I understand. But THESE mistakes aren't little one's nor are they isolated. As a Jedi, I may have felt good about his turning back but punished him for the evil.
  4. Lord_NoONE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    star 5
    I think I understand. His spirit may not be so pure as to avoid any negative effects on the Force and so I don't know if the Force gained anything by including Anakin in it. I've always viewed the Force as being about equilibrium as compared to overall gains versus detractions. Obi-Wan's line in TPM to Boss Nass about symbiant circles is severely underrated, IMO, as a commentary on the Force. From the very beginning of the PT we learn that the Force is out of balance and that the Chosen One would some day return the Force to its proper state.

    From this perspective, perhaps, when Anakin does finally accomplish goal of destroying the Sith, his inclusion in the Force facilitates the Force's equilibrium. It's a shaky theory, to be sure, but perhaps that's one of the reasons why the Force desired compassion be shown to the Chosen One.
  5. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    Well for the sake of happy endings I tend to ingore that part.

    However, I'm sure once Anakin was done smiling at Luke in the end of ROTJ, Obi-Wan & Yoda has a nice long chat with him. Who's to say he wasn't punished later on?
  6. Darth_Muffins Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2004
    star 4
    What I think he means is that Anakin did his job and destroyed the Sith wich is what he was supposed to do. Anakin becoming a force ghost does not matter because he did what he was supposed to do and that is that. The force gains nothing from Anakin becoming a force ghost.

    Yoda and Obi helping Anakin become a force ghost is their decision and their decision alone. They forgave Anakin so they helped him become a ghost.

    I think it shows that Yoda and Obi are what true Jedi Masters should be. They are able to forgive Anakin even though he did so many evil things.
  7. Lord_NoONE Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2001
    star 5
    Yes, but let's not underestimate Obi-Wan's and Yoda's commitment to the living Force and its will. They've certainly learned a lot between the PT and the OT. Their discipleship and obedience to the living Force, which I equate with the will of the Force, likely deepend over time. Perhaps their ability to view Anakin's choice through the lens of a larger perspective helped reinforce their resolve to obey the Force's will. Though these two Jedi might have felt the base and natural urge to allow Anakin be punished for his transgressions, those desires are not the way of a Jedi. Jedi show compassion and love. Add to this the will of the Force that Anakin be shown mercy to establish an equilibrium, and we may have a decent answer. :)
  8. Ech0Strike Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2005
    star 1
    Obi wan is a better dueler than anikan in the fact that hes smarter and more clever. Anikan is better with a lightsaber but obi wan knows that the only way to deafet anikan is to use his anger against him. So in terms of brute strength anikan is better but obi wan is smarter.
  9. Sith_of_Yoder Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 12, 2005
    star 1
    Anakin is deffinitely worse, i have to agree, and Obi-wan uses more of a mental fight tactic than a physical one.
  10. Chosen_One1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2005
    star 4
    Just because your smarter than your opponent doesn't mean your better. Darth Maul killed Qui-Gon.

    When your outmatched, you need something to tip the battle in your favor. Obi-Wan got that with the high ground. No opportunity arose for Qui-Gon so he lost. Fighters like that need some other advantage to win then just their combat skill.
  11. Ruthio Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 2
    why are we still argueing babout htis? i saw no evidence in the duel to prove Obi-wan was better then Anakin. Thye looked alittle eve, skywalker seemed stronger and more imposeing. Is telling your oponent not to jump and he does prove you to be a better dueler? Im pretty sure if Mace windu jumped up wih Kneobi in that "High ground" like that his arms and legs would get chopped as well. Oh and the hole qui-gon bit the only reason Jin lost cause Maul had double edged Lightsaber!
  12. Lord_Maul_the_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 3
    No, I'm pretty sure Qui-Gon lost because Darth Maul was a much better fighter. Remember, he held his own against two of the most powerful Jedi. The team of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon could find no weakness in him, and they were pretty evenly matched. When Obi-Wan got stuck behind the shield, Qui-Gon just couldn't last by himself.

    I saw Anakin and Obi-Wan pretty equal in their fight. That's why it went on for so long -- they were totally even. Anakin just got cocky, like Darth Maul did, and Obi-Wan capitalized on this to defeat him.
  13. Ruthio Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 2
    you are aware Kenobi was only a padawan and was not considered a powerful one in the phantom menace? so Maul lost to a padawan.....not as tough as he seems.
  14. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    A single duel proves nothing. A single duel proves nothing. A single duel proves nothing.

    Everyone go look up the word "inductive."

  15. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    Considering the Jedi and Sith tend to duel to the death, I'd say that a single duel
    means quite a lot, actually.

    Anakin left the duel burned alive, singed lungs, and 3 appendages short of a full load.
    Obi Wan left with tears and regret.

    So regardless of NG's power scale, or GL's prophecy, Obi Wan was better for the
    2 seconds that it counted.

    Here endeth the lesson.
  16. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    It may mean a lot, but the question is "Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?"

    The answer is no. You cannot prove this based on ONE duel. You are falling prey to the logical fallacy of inductive reasoning. You are generalizing about their skills as duelists based on one duel.

    Edit: I believe Darth-sinister has the copyright on the phrase "Here endeth the lesson" :p
  17. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    nothing about what i said is either inductive or generalized.

    Obi Wan left with all of his appendages, Anakin left a crispy critter without
    all of his apprendages. This is factually what occurs and lends itself to
    deduction, but thanks for the philosophy lesson.
  18. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I tried, but you're still missing the point about proving things logically from a single example.

    Here we go, using your logic:

    Obi-Wan>Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan>Anakin>Dooku>Obi-Wan...see the problem?

    If we are to PROVE which one is the better duelist, we need more than one example to do that.

    So, I still say NO, the duel does not prove that Obi-Wan is necessarily better than Anakin.

    And the power rankings are just silly.

    When GL is deciding the outcome of the duels, do you think he has a little chart up in his office ranking the Jedi.

    Of course not, because the duels in Star Wars are dictated by the plot, not an imaginary ranking system.

    P.S. It's not like I'm trying to drop hardcore philosophy terms here. Inductive logic has many drawbacks, and this is well-known.
  19. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    NG openly claims that he was instructed by GL to form a power ranking system
    which I find ridiculous. I also agree with you that the decisions are based
    on plot points, not reason.

    I discount the binary view of vs +/- system in favor of a paper, rock, stone model.

    I am not contending that Obi Wan is better than Anakin, in general.
    I am, however, contending that Obi Wan is better than Anakin for the 2 seconds
    when Anakin jumps at him in the air when it counts.

    None of which is inductive. It is quite deductive. It's all there on film.
    There is no conjecture. Just the facts, ma'am.

    By the way yosh, I very much enjoy debating you. At least you play by
    the Marchess of Queensbury rules, unlike others who denigrate their
    valid points by making personal attacks.
  20. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Thank you, I enjoy debating you as well because you make intelligent arguments and back-up your statements with things from the film. And I do see your point.

    At a certain place and time, namely this duel, Obi-Wan is the better duelist. However, I don't think we can use this duel, per se, to definitively prove Obi-Wan's superiority (even though he's my favorite Jedi, in a subjective sense!)
  21. jedi_prime Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2005
    star 2
    I don't think that the Mustafar duel proves that either is more capable as a duelist. I believe that the two were evenly matched, but in different ways. While Anakin was more powerful generally, Obi Wan had a lot more experience on his side, which can easily compensate for Anakin's greater strength.

    That being said, Anakin may have won the fight if he hadn't lost his patience and been so overconfident in his own abilities. If he had bided his time and prolonged the engagement, he may well have had a long-term advantage over Obi Wan as far as endurance and strength. He acted rashly, in a fit of defiance and megalomania, and he lost his limbs for it.
  22. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    But that line of reasoning leads to false premises. If x, then y. If y, then z.
    That's conjecture. Especially in the face of a happens, which results in b.
    If, if, if statments cloud this matter even further than anything.

    If Obi Wan hand't lost to Dooku twice, this thread wouldn't even exist.

    Well, maybe, maybe not.
  23. SenatorPrincessLeia Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2005
    star 2
    It just proves Obi Wan won that duel, not necessarily that he's better than Anakin. Plus with their different abilities, experience, personalities and styles, and conditions on the day, how can you compare? They will be each better at one aspect then the other...

    (side point: Its interesting that Obi lit his lightsabre first on mustafar)

    Anyways, it really hit me this last time i saw Sith at the cinema how much Obi Wan was fighting defensively and fortunately for him thats what he's good at because Anakin really was the aggressor.

    The final moments leading up to Anakin's dismemberment... sums up the whole fight... Obi Wan was the first to get off the machinery as he was looking ahead and realised it wasn't a good place to be. Anakin was so busy trying to get Obi Wan he was delayed in getting off and only just got off. Then when it came to Obi Wan looking for and then finding a good opportunity to get off the floating platform and on to land, really shows his maturity and strengths. The reason he won was because he followed his training and controlled his emotions. Anakin was so full of hate that even though he was stronger in the force, he couldnt beat him on the day.
    [face_plain]

  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    (side point: Its interesting that Obi lit his lightsabre first on mustafar) /b]

    That is interesting, I hadn't even noticed, actually. Does he do the same thing
    with his duel against GG?

    Isn't it an interesting parallel to Luke being the first to ignite his saber
    everytime in the OT?
  25. Lord_Maul_the_Sith Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 3
    So Obi-Wan is more powerful that Qui-Gon, even though he's still his Padawan?

    CRZA: That's a good point, but I doubt one would file the duel in "Empire" under "Wins for Luke", so the correlation is iffy at best. But Vader ignites his lightsaber before Obi-Wan in "New Hope", so maybe your theory holds water.

    I think Obi-Wan does ignite his lightsaber before Grievous. That way it's more of an "Oh, crap, he's screwed" moment when Grievous pulls out the four lightsabers (even though without the Force, Grievous was the one who was screwed).
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