Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by HagentheSith, Jan 15, 2005.

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  1. Extreme_yoda Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 2

    omg yoda vs dooku wasnt a draw ...as i remember ...dooku fled the fight by putting anakin and obi in danger ...

    now lets take the whole movie into cannon shall we..

    yoda to obi: 'strong enough to help me , you are not'

    what does that say ...obi cant even help yoda take down sidious...now what makes u think that obi can even fight with sidious alone?????




    can u actually say that knowing yoda has been training jedi for 800 years? put it at 700 and sumthing in ep1?

    oh btw ...i saw a parrallel between obi and ani fights .....in obi vs maul ...when obi saw his master die ...he got mad....u can clearly see that he was using his anger against maul ...in ep3 anakin vs dooku ...dooku was taunting him ..so anakin began to get mad and defeat him..

    you know what i say ..i believe in ep3 obi wan and anakin nevermind experience and power....ARE EQUAL say obi wan was the one making the jump....dont u think anakin wouldve sliced him up as well??? thats why the duel was sooo long because they were equal to eachother at the time ..


    each had its plusses and minuses ...dats why obi wasnt able to beat dooku and anakin was ...its like a puzzle with anakin and obi ..they both connect
  2. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    Yoda never wins a single duel in the Saga. What does that tell us? Yoda is vulnerable.
  3. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    but thats because yoda fights dooku and sidious.obi wan cant beat any of those foes either
  4. strider24 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2005
    star 1
    Based on Anakin's emotional state in ROTS, I would say most definitely yes. Given more time, and negating the entire storyline with him being seduced, a huge what if scenario, Anakin would have been the dominant dueler. Yes, he beat Dooku who bested Obi Wan, but that IMHO is purely based on Anakin's giving in to his rage and really letting go! Just like Obi Wan did with Darth Maul. That was pure hatred, Anakin vs. Obi Wan had him in a different emotional state. Padme was in the equation, he had just been seduced by the darkside, remorse for his dark deeds, his love and loyalty to Obi Wan, they were like brothers, and his blind arrogance. He was unstable. When he thought Dooku had killed Obi Wan, and not to mention his hatred for him for taking his hand, the whole war, etc., Anakin flipped. This was the raw power fueled by his anger that decided that outcome, a whole different story. Anakin in time would have been unstoppable, we unfortunately never got to see it.
  5. MOC Yak Face Old Films' Curator

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    Yoda was trying to fight Dooku while taking care of Obiwan and Anakin, deal with falling debris etc. On a level playing field I'd back Yoda over Dooku. The only other guy he duels is Sidious and he holds his own there.
  6. Darth-sennin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 3
    Nonsense. Obi-wan had to capture Jango Fett, a very difficult task. And Jango ran away. How can you consider Jango the winner. Was it foolish to kick someone off a platform when you are tied to them? Sure, but he had no lightsaber and he didn't want to get shot, he didn't really have a choice. And after all that, Obi-wan gets his lightsaber and is ready for more, but Jango high tails it.

    Exactly.
  7. Darth-sennin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 3
    I didn't really take it that way. It's possible that Yoda could not beat Anakin, Obi-wan is (on paper) outmatched by Sidious, but he is the perfect opponent for Anakin. If these thoughts ran through Yoda's mind, than he is not being a coward, he is accuratley weighing both his Obi-wan's strengths/weaknesses. Knowing your limitations is an essential part of humility, which all jedi should have.

    Anakin lost because of his arrogance. This is a flaw of all sith that Obi-wan knew about and exploited. You don't think Sidious would be overconfident when facing Obi-wan? It's not much of an advantage, but Obi-wan's done more with less.

    You've mis-quoted that line multiple times. What Yoda actually says is: "To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not."

    The idea of Obi-wan and Yoda teaming up on Sidious was never brought up. Probably because they needed to kill the sith lords as quickly as possible, before they could consolodate their power.
  8. Darth-sennin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2001
    star 3
  9. BothofUs Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2003
    star 4
    The answer to this is simple.

    Dooku is better than Obi-Wan.
    Anakin is better than Dooku.

    But...

    Anakin is better than Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan is Anakin's master!

    Topic closed.
  10. WEEBACCA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2004
    star 4
    IMO I think Obi-Wan said the line as a warning to Anakin, but
    Anakin was too cocky and emotionally driven to think rationally.



    I don't think this is the case. Obi-Wan had already given up on turning him ("Then you are Lost!") and Anakin had also stated that "This is the end for you, my Master" clearly intending to kill Obi. Obi-Wan therefore had no option but to disable Anakin which he cleverly did by saying that Anakin should give up on the account that Obi had the "high ground" knowing that Anakin's blinded faith in his own powers would make him attack.
  11. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    Anakin is better than Obi-Wan because Obi-Wan is Anakin's master!

    this doesnt make any sense
  12. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    I agree that this scene is open to interpretation and it took several viewings for it to crystallize for me. But even though I agree that Obi gave up on Anakin w/ "Then you are lost!" I still think it was a genuine warning. I call it his "Garden of Gethsemane" moment when he was still begging (The Force or Fate as it were) NOT to have to do this.
    The look on Obi's face is pure anguish - he knows what's coming, the Force is probably "screaming in his ear" but he'd still give anything to get out of it. But when he can't - he does "what he must."
  13. TheBlackLodge Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2005
    " The look on Obi's face is pure anguish - he knows what's coming, the Force is probably "screaming in his ear" but he'd still give anything to get out of it. But when he can't - he does "what he must.""

    Thats an interesting way too look at it, for me Anakin lost simply down to being too arrogant and too emotionally messed up, in a short space of time he's gone from the being the heroic poster boy of the Jedi to a mixed up, child murdering, friend murdering, wife choking assasin, yet he feels he's doing all of these things that he clearly hates (The excellent Mustafar tear scene) for the greater good, he is all over the place, he isn't centered in either his old powers or his new powers and thus he makes one silly mistake that Obi Wan takes advantage off.

    There is no question as to whether that makes Obi Wan better, it doesn't, Anakin centered, focused........Theres no contest, for me the Duel sees Obi Wan struggle to stay in the game most of the time and then somehow come out on top at the death, much like the Rangers V Porto game at Ibrox ;)
  14. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    I've avoided adressing this question directly for along time - I'll finally wade in. Was Obi better? Well, he had better control of, or was more in tune with, the Force and when two Force users are dueling - that's what counts. Why am I so sure? Well, Vader tells us - if you listen.

    What does he say in ANH?

    "The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force," translation - 'Dude, I'm in this "iron lung" because I underestimated the Force - I'll never make that mistake again.'

    And "Obi-wan *is* here - the Force is with him." translation - 'He's not going to surprise me again. Now, I understand - I'm not just fighting Obi, I'm fighting Obi + the Force.'

    "Now - I am the Master." translation - 'Now I can control the Force as well, if not better, than you.'

    AnaVader lost because he underestimated the Force and Obi's connection to it. And that, in my opinion, made Obi better. But it wasn't about Obi at all - it was about the Force.
  15. MacetheCouncillor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 2003
    star 3
    "Does the Duel prove that Obi-Wan is better dueler than Anakin?"

    No.
  16. TheBlackLodge Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2005
    "Well, he had better control of, or was more in tune with, the Force and when two Force users are dueling........ "

    See if it wasn't for the Dooku fight completely showing that one up as being perhaps very wrong (IMO) I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.

    I think perhaps your on the right track with the better control part, but for me its his emotions that he has the leash on, more experienced force user ? Yes, but then Dooku was more so than Obi in that regard and Anakin handed him his head on a platter with some hands as a side dish.

    For me the Duel was about the emotions of betraya, brother Vs brother etc, not who has the bigger or indeed better mojo.

    Edit 1 -Clarification
    Edit 2 -I can't spell...........

  17. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    Well obviously how "in tune" you are w/ the Force can fluctuate. Obi's concentration might have been off there. [He may have been too focused on the last battle w/ Dooku or Dooku may cause his concentration to slip due to the Qui-gon connection - who's to say? Or maybe the Force was only "willing" to ensure that Obi lived not that he won? The Force certainly "works in mysterious ways."]

    Or maybe Dooku had superior Force control until he was one on one w/ Anakin - then he wavered due to arrogance, or lack of concentration, etc.

    Well from my way of thinking - you need a pretty tight rein on your emotions to use the Light Side of the Force so it all still works for me.
  18. TheBlackLodge Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2005
    TBL says -There is no 'light side' of the force my dear ;)

    But I see your point with that last, and indeed I think that is my point, and I think was something mentioned by both Gillard and Lucas, Obi stays detached. Anakin does not.

    I think rather I saw your first post as being a little too 'Unified Force' for my liking ;) But in essesence we seem to agree.

    I think.
  19. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    I absolutely agree, MTC. I can't believe how simplistically people are looking at this question. How in the heck could a SINGLE duel prove either one is a better duelist? It's one duel! This is not a large enough sample group to prove anything.

    All this duel proves is that on that fateful day on Mustafar, Obi-Wan was the better duelist. That's it. That one day.

    It is simple willful ignorance on the part of those who claim this duel proves something conclusively. The logic is incredibly inductive and flawed.
  20. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    Hmmm, yes. I hadn't really gotten into why they have better control or are more intune w/ the Force but I see your point. But it does all come down to the Force... for me. As intoned so continually by good old DV throughout ANH.

    Of course there is! The Force is like duct tape - it has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together!:D

    Well congratulations on your perceptivity, sir - I'm a big fan of the Unified Force [face_batting] but I do think in essence if not particulars we do agree.[face_peace]
  21. DarthJiangWei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2005
    star 1
    If Anakin's mind had been clear and focused, Obi-Wan would have been the one who would need a suit to live.
  22. Jedi_Momma Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2005
    star 2
    If Anakin's mind had been clear and focused throughout ROTS - neither of them would have ever been on Mustafar. He would have wacked Palps head off the minute he told him he had been lying about knowing how to save Padme.
  23. sithrules70 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4

    =D==D==D=




    =D==D=




    both of you have excellent points here :D
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