Does the EU take away your autonomy?

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by TOUCHPUMP, Aug 28, 2002.

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  1. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Europeans:

    When the European Union was in the planning and formation stages obviously many felt it would take away from their country?s identity. Are you happy with results?

    I am Irish born and many relatives in Ireland seem pleased with the ?modernization? that has taken place largely in part to European subsidies and foreign Investment. Some countries have benefited, but my concern is how much power lies with the EU. It seems to me as an American Europe as whole is experiencing a group think mentality. Is this a concern for my European counterparts?

    Several years ago I spent some time studying in London and got to do quite a bit of traveling and enjoyed the unique cultures and societies that made up the places I visited. I would hate to come back in 15 years and see more than money standardized in Europe.

    If another thread exists point me that way.
  2. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Peace and trade cooperation are *more* than great.

    Loss of national autonomy on fiscal and monetary issues is dangerous. I hope that England doens' join the Euro.
  3. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Wow second anti - EU thread.

    Is this a concern for my European counterparts

    Actually no, that is not concernt Americans always seem to hate EU for reasons I cannot see as a Portuguese (living in Holland) myself.

    For example here

    read that thread you can clearly see that Americans (with the British) hate the EU and that's a mentality I never seem to understand.
    Could you explain me that?

    Loss of national autonomy on fiscal and monetary issues is dangerous. I hope that England doens' join the Euro.

    So that is basicly saying that every state in the US should have different kind currency?
    I don't that see that happening, do you?
  4. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    "Wow second anti - EU thread."

    What did I suggest in my opening that was anti EU? Just looking for some feedback.

  5. Wylding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2000
    star 5
    Yeah how is this anti-EU? He's asking for opinions on it. Not making a blanket statement of "EU bad...beer good!"
  6. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    Not making a blanket statement of "EU bad...beer good!"

    not yet, I experienced that these kind of threads starts ok, good debate. And the end it's one big bash war.

    Ok let's continue and ignore my statement...
  7. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2
    When the European Union was in the planning and formation stages obviously many felt it would take away from their country?s identity. Are you happy with results?


    So far, I'm quite happy with the results, but I'd say that the European Union is still in the formation stages.

    Some countries have benefited, but my concern is how much power lies with the EU. It seems to me as an American Europe as whole is experiencing a group think mentality.


    I don't understand what you mean by a "group think mentality". Do you have any example?

    I would hate to come back in 15 years and see more than money standardized in Europe.


    So far, the impact of the EU has been mainly economic. There is little to no impact on our cultures. There is indeed a bit of standardization going on... but this is a wolrdwide tendency, and Europe is probably less affected than for example Asia or Africa. I think this standardization is more the result of a worldwide economy than of the EU (for example, I don't think that Switzerland is any less affected).
  8. SCOTSSITHLORD Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 2
    Does the EU take away your autonomy?
    Yes
    Does it take away your cultural autonomy?
    No
    I'm opposed to the EU because if you have no control over your economy, you have very limited political control or autonomy. I don't remember the exact details, but there was a political row awhile back concerning the EU effectively telling the Irish government what they could spend. This robs elections of any true purpose, as in fact you'll be voting for one group or other of career bureaucrats to administer and fine tune a system being controlled by the central bank. I don't care a jot whether this central bank is located in Frankfurt, London, Brussels, or Edinburgh, it's the principle that's important. Too often the debate about the EU and the euro is portrayed as a simple left/right split, and descends to the level of the school playground, in fairness most of this can be laid at the door of the EU's critics.
    When there is so much to get riled about, the bureaucracy, corruption, undemocratic structures and centralising tendencies, it's absurd to reduce it to the level of calling foreigners names, in the UK's case, usually the french and germans. By the same token it's crazy that some people support the euro simply because their arithmetic is hopeless. Of course the euro will make holidays abroad more convenient for the numerically challenged but that's hardly a worthy reason for throwing away your own currency. You might just as well base your decision on the aesthetic qualities of the new coins or notes.
  9. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Olivier:

    What I am referring to is that 10 years ago France, Germany, and England tended to hold 3 different opinions on a world issue. Today it seems as if Europe is a block on the world front. Now that can be a good thing or bad thing based on your perspective. And maybe I'm overreacting to recent events.
  10. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    We hate the EU because the EU is the forefront of the Empire (New World Order). It seeks absolute order and control and the total abolition of individuality and personal freedom.

    Down with the suits! Throw your fist in the air!
  11. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    this post has been lost in a time warp. thank you and have a good day.
  12. HavocHound Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 30, 2000
    star 4
    What assassinations? I didn't say anything. Meesa doin nothing! :p

    Really though, you're right. I might give myself away and then they'll come through my window at night and floss out my mind with an electrostatic scrambler. Either that, or they'll take me back to their headquarters and administer MK-Ultra.

    I just get carried away sometimes.
  13. Olivier Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 2
    TOUCHPUMP:

    ok, I see what you mean. Well, maybe things are changing in that respect, but I don't think it is as recent as you imply: 10 years ago, things were not that different. Take for example the Gulf war, and the war in Afganistan. In 1991, you could see a general trend among European nations (as regards their support in this war), but you could clearly see differences (for example, the UK was more involved than any other European nations). In Afganistan, you could see exactly the same thing: a common line of conduct, but also differences in their involvement (spelling?). I don't think things have changed that much.
    From the inside, it is still obvious that there are differences, though it is also obvious that without a common line of conduct Europe will have little to no weight on internationnal issues. What gives some "non-Europeans" this feeling of a block may be a recent realization of this tendency, due to a few visible signs (like the common currency. But this has been going on for at least 40 years now.

    SCOTSSITHLORD:

    There is much more to the Euro than "mak[ing] holidays abroad more convenient": for example, it brings stability to the European market. Imports and exports are highly dependant on the (relative) fluctuation of national currencies. By cancelling those fluctuations, you make it far less risky (is it english?) for companies to rely on their exports. (I'm sure their are a lot of other effects of the Euro especially for the financial markets, but I'm no specialist here).

    HavocHound:

    We hate the EU because the EU is the forefront of the Empire (New World Order). It seeks absolute order and control and the total abolition of individuality and personal freedom.

    I don't see how the EU "seeks absolute order ...", nor how it is any different from the US in that respect. Care to explain?
  14. Lordban Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 9, 2000
    star 5
    Havoc, your sentence sounds a lot like scaremongering, I'm afraid. I would feel better if you exposed the reasons why you believe the EU is trying to force a "New World Order".

    Does the EU take away your economy ?
    Well, at the moment this is the very question asked to the Irish as they're running to a referendum in October on whether or not they should accept to sign the Nice treaty. As a foreigner on holiday there I find following that debate quite interesting, because the issues raised have nothing to do with the concern about a New World Order. What are the issues the No-2-Nice campaigners are raising ?

    First one is effectively seen here as scaremongering : the No-2-Nice leaders (Mr Anthony Coughlan in particular) have warned about a threat that hundreds of thousands immigrants would come from the states that are about to integrate the EU. That threat has been dismissed by all Irish and EU authorities, invoking the precedent that integration of Spain and Portugal has in no way brought the massive numbers of immigrants French scaremongerers said would come back then ; besides, most immigration will be received by Germany and Austria, and it's likely not to be vast numbers, ranging in the hundred thousands with 1 as the first figure at "worst".
    Second issue is the Nice Treaty could mean Irish neutrality would have to be sacrificed. This, too, is off-target because the Nice Treaty specifically says that the decision to commit military forces in any joint EU military operation is the decision of member-states alone ; they can't be made to commit troops against their will.

    Third issue is that some argue Ireland would become a sort of 2nd Class nation, no longer having a permanent member in the Commission once Europe has enlarged to the expected 24-25 states, whereas France, Germany, Italy and the UK would retain permanent membership. Frankly, this is a rather logical issue since a 25-member co;;ission would be thrown into endless debates and accomplish little ; besides, it is common sense that a country like Germany, which counts roughly ten times the population of Ireland, should have more weight over the overall EU politics.

    Before the issue is raised, I will mention the fact that there already has been a first referendum om the Nice treaty here and that the first answer was a "No". I will also mention the fact that it's the Irish government alone that has decided to raise the issue again, and it's not been under extraordinary pressions from other EU countries to do so. A few people invoked that since a referendum has already taken place, a second one on the same issue sounds dictatorial but, as an Irish government member wisely replied, what would be dictatorial would be to assume the Irish people don't have the right to change their minds.
  15. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Being an American it doesn't matter much of anything what we think as Europe will do what they want, but personally I dislike the idea of uniform governments. Too much corruption, back scratching and petty disputes. The loss of autonomy is significant, and the "speak with one voice" sentiment is as bad as the peer pressure in High School but the stakes are much higher now. That's just multi-state conglaumoration in general.

    Then you've got problems with Europe specifically. What I don't like with the EU is it's mentality. It's leaders are trying to make a superpower to rival the US, pumping up anti-american rhetoric in the media, making baseless accusations which many people have swallowed; hook line and sinker and turned valuable and close allies into competetors who seem to try and defy the US at every turn and decision with the mentality of "speak with one voice". The leaders of the EU are doing this for power, as shown by their actions, not for love peace and prosperity. I don't like the mistrust and misinformation that's been spewing from the supporters of the EU and I seriously question their motives. Are they looking out for Europes best interests or their own? hmmm
  16. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    anti-american rhetoric in the media, making baseless accusations which many people have swallowed;

    what anti-american rhetoric in the media. Could you give some example? Tenorjedi

    defy the US at every turn and decision with the mentality of "speak with one voice".

    We defy the US at most decision because we don't agree with your ideas on it???
    We have different mentality on situations. There was a person who posted a good article why there is a different way of thinking between Europeans and Americans I'll try to find it.

    conglaumoration

    it's conglomeration ;)
  17. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    what anti-american rhetoric in the media. Could you give some example? Tenorjedi

    -William Blum and his lovely articles
    -Kyoto and the hypocracy, blaming the US when they didn't want to sign it
    -ICC and the hypocracy of the US wanting the same protections other countries were given without protest
    -Camp X-ray and the baseless accusations of abuse which even the prisoners in confindence denyed to international observers

    These are current major things that the EU has blown out of perportion to deface the US and turn public opinion against it.

    We defy the US at most decision because we don't agree with your ideas on it???

    yes, lately the US cannot do anything without the EU countries protesting. From treaties that they don't sign to the US asking for the same considerations as other countries get and getting blasted for it. They're a bunch of hypocrates.

    We have different mentality on situations. There was a person who posted a good article why there is a different way of thinking between Europeans and Americans I'll try to find it.

    I don't deny the mentality and way of thinking are different, but this is beyond that. This is a painfully obvious ploy by some to deface the US to the European public. The way of thinking is totally different. I'm aware of it and it's really interesting. From minors dating to moderation in drinking, socially we are quite different.

    it's conglomeration
    Good to know. I suck at spelling and have never claimed to have gotten an "A" in spelling.
  18. Force of Nature Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 1999
    star 3
    "So that is basicly saying that every state in the US should have different kind currency?"

    Not really, no. The USA is a country (currency = US dollars), like the UK (currency = pounds sterling). The EU is not a country; it started and, as far as I'm concerned, remains a group of trading partners. With regard to the euro, I've no objection to it as an alternative currency, which some people may wish to use for reasons of convenience. I would, however, object to having it foisted upon us (or on any other nation, for that matter) as a replacement for our existing currency.

    As far as a European 'group mentality' is concerned, I just don't see that. Perhaps it's more apparent in mainland Europe; I don't know but I'm rather sceptical.
  19. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    -William Blum and his lovely articles

    Sorry never read any of it's articles. So I dunno what your talking about.

    -Kyoto and the hypocracy, blaming the US when they didn't want to sign it

    Well about hypocracy part. Some countries (e.g Netherlands) are obeying the Kyoto threaty.

    US IS the biggest polluter of the world. So US not signing it means no change in the atmosphere

    -ICC and the hypocracy of the US wanting the same protections other countries were given without protest

    Not this again... ;)
    Go to the ICC thread if you want to discuss it.

    -Camp X-ray and the baseless accusations of abuse which even the prisoners in confindence denyed to international observers

    Well something must be going on against human rights law. If the US goverment does not except international observers.
    This reminds me a bit of Saddam Hussein and the UN observers several years ago.

    lately the US cannot do anything without the EU countries protesting.

    to be honest I wish that EU should stop doing that. So I agree with you on that.

    From treaties that they don't sign to the US asking for the same considerations as other countries get and getting blasted for it
    We do sign the threaties... (e.g ICC, Kyoto)

    I don't fully understand the second part could you please explain?

    The EU is not a country;
    Not yet, that is what they aiming at.

    USA = United States of America, America consist of 50 different states each state with it's own flag and laws. Only they serve the same country and have the same. So basicly it's the same as EU)

    UK = United Kingdom. 4 different kingdoms, with it's own flag, (some even it's own language), culture. If I'm not mistaken each with it's own seperate laws.

    EU = European Union. 15 Independent countries. Each with it's own laws, flags, culture, language. Some now same money.

    See it's exactly the same. Perhaps we should change the name to United Europe. I think Americans and British would realise our intentions apperently they don't want Union means...

    Sure the countries are going to lose it's autonomy. But it keeps it's culture, language, way of life, borders and of course flags.
    So I'm not complaining...

    As far as a European 'group mentality' is concerned, I just don't see that.

    there is a difference in mentality. But the British are the "weirdo's"* of Europe. They think a think a bit different, (they even drive on the left side :p )

    *Don't take this to seriously...
  20. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    Well about hypocracy part. Some countries (e.g Netherlands) are obeying the Kyoto threaty.

    US IS the biggest polluter of the world. So US not signing it means no change in the atmosphere


    Those countries like the netherlands aren't industrial producers. Per capita the US is not the largest polluter and not to mention that this treaty did not effect those countries just starting out that would be the largest polluters per capita. To say that other countries are that much better is false. Just because the US as a nation (being one of the largest in the world and the largest of the top nations) is the top polluter is ignoring the facts. If Russia, China, Japan, the UK France and others signed the treaty it would have more of an effect than just the US would. You have the sterotyped impression that the US is some big huge smoke stack. Hardly. Many countries are far worse per capita than the US. Research the facts before you listen to the EU line about the big bad polluter the US.

    Not this again...
    Go to the ICC thread if you want to discuss it


    Tell me that countries haven't been given what the US requested without protest. You can't? Again, an EU defacing lie. Hardly the actions of a friend here.

    Well something must be going on against human rights law. If the US goverment does not except international observers.

    We did and they denied the abuse allegations to the observers. They had no complaints. Read the statement again the baseless accusations of abuse, which even the prisoners in confindence denyed to international observers

    to be honest I wish that EU should stop doing that. So I agree with you on that.

    Sorry, had to change my shorts ;)

    We do sign the threaties... (e.g ICC, Kyoto)

    I don't fully understand the second part could you please explain?

    Other countries don't sign the treaties, but the US doesn't and we're blasted with crititism on all sides.


    Overall I have my doubts about those wishing to form the EU into a country.
  21. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    even the prisoners in confindence denyed to international observers

    You can always force a person to lie...
    But to be honest I never heard anything about it on tv...

    Japan, the UK France and others signed the treaty it would have more of an effect than just the US would.

    COUNTRY TOTAL CO2 EMISSIONS
    (000 metric tons)
    South Africa 305,805
    Poland, Rep 338,044
    France 340,085
    Mexico 357,834
    Korea, Rep 373,592
    Italy 409,983
    Canada 435,749
    Ukraine 438,211
    United Kingdom 542,140
    Germany 835,099
    India 908,734
    Japan 1,126,753
    Russian Federation 1,818,011
    China 3,192,484
    United States 5,468,564

    Oh my god US is the biggest polluter :eek:
    I bet your shocked now!
    Look who's being brainwashed now? Perhaps it's the American citizens not EU ones?
    But China, Russia, Japan should sign as well (if I'm not mistaken Japan did sign it)
    But America IS the biggest polluter

    Research the facts before you listen to the EU line about the big bad polluter the US.

    I did didn't I. I researched the facts!

    If you want more figures pm me I'll send you a link of the site

    Again, an EU defacing lie.

    you should keep it down a bit ok?

    Other countries don't sign the treaties, but the US doesn't and we're blasted with crititism on all sides.

    remember the ICC discussion there was a site with the list off all countries that signed the ICC agreement.
    That means that other counries did sign the treaties. So on ICC other countries did sign the threaty.

    Look Tenorjedi I've a request I can see you can get a bit aggresive during heated debates (like I do).

    Cool down a bit ok?
  22. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Darth_Omega
    Your first post in this thread was a concern that this was another anti EU thread. Interesting that you have turned the discussion away from the topic at hand to continually single out the U.S. for not participating in in certain World Wide policies.

    Too bad we have gone way off topic, but I would also like to point out the U.S has by far the highest GDP http://www.worldbank.org/data/databytopic/GDP.pdf by far.

    As a matter of fact there is a strong correlation between GDP and CO2 emissions. By producing so many goods and services that is going to happen. Just telling a country to stop producing chemicals does not make it good policy.

    So how does the U.S. not signing the Kyoto treaty relate to autonomy in the EU?


  23. Darth_Omega Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 19, 2002
    star 6
    you have turned the discussion away from the topic at hand to continually single out the U.S. for not participating in in certain World Wide policies.


    Really TOUCHPUMP???

    I have turned the discussion???

    I was just pointing out to Tenorjedi that Europeans citizens are not being brainwashed. As he falsely accused.

    So TOUCHPUMP the discussion did not turn.

    Just telling a country to stop producing chemicals does not make it a good policy.

    Look Tenorjedi the American citizens are the ones that are being brainwashed.

    TOUCHPUMP Kyoto was not intended to stop producing. It intented to REDUCE the CO2 emmisions. While still producing it's producing it's stuff.

    Go search in a dictionary what the difference are betweein reducing and stopping.

    So how does the U.S. not signing the Kyoto treaty relate to autonomy in the EU?

    TOUCHPUMP reread the thread and perhaps you will find the connection.

    EDIT: If we look at GDP per capita then Luxembourg is number 1 by far :p
    I'm going to bed good night!
  24. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Thanks for all the bold. I wasn't sure I was going to be able to read your post. ;)

    Stop was a poor choice of words. I have checked my dictionary and you are correct. Reduce would make more sense. You learned me there; I mean taught.

    And yes you are not the only guilty party for changing the tone and point of the thread.

    Later.
  25. Vaderbait Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 6
    Actually no, that is not concernt Americans always seem to hate EU for reasons I cannot see as a Portuguese (living in Holland) myself.


    Yeah, sometimes life throws you a bone like that. Most of us Americans are still trying to figure out why you Europeans hate us so much.
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