Does the post TPM Jedi's lack of concern over Qiu Gon's death concern you?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Darth Ludicrous, Oct 23, 2001.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    I'd love to see a comic or story take place that follows a Jedi investigating Qiu Gon Jinn's death... and the impact it has on his fellow Jedi.
  2. Rogue_Starbuck Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah, they did seem rather un-excited about the whole affair.

    It would be cool to see them checking out Maul's corpse - "Yep, that's a Sith alright..." :D
  3. IronParrot Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 5
    That would be a neat Fan Fic idea... I wonder if it's been done.

    It's too bad something this crucial hasn't been implemented into the oh-so-holy "continuity". Maybe because it would tread on Eppy 2's toes in some way I'm unaware of.
  4. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    He died, they know what killed him, and the killer is now out of the picture. I don?t think I understand why they need to do an investigation. It?s over and done with. It almost seems like beating a dead horse to me. But it could just be that I don?t understand what you?re trying to get at.
  5. Darth Ludicrous Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 25, 2000
    star 5
    were there two shooters?

    Also the Jedi did not seem too broken up or concerned that one of their own was felled by a much better swordsman none of them had even trained.
  6. TalonCard •Author: Slave Pits of Lorrd •TFN EU Staff

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Jan 31, 2001
    star 5
    I think Yoda and Mace's conversation at the end of TPM showed that the Jedi were pretty shook up.

    TC
  7. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    Darth Ludicrous, I?m sure you know that controlling one?s negative emotions is one of a the more important aspects of being a Light Side Jedi. I wouldn?t have expected to see Yoda "broken up" about anything less than the destruction of a star system.
  8. The Gatherer Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 1999
    star 6
  9. Knight1192 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2000
    star 6
    Much better swordsman? Sorry, but Maul was hype, I honestly don't think he was much better as a swordsman than Qui-Gon. He got lucky.

    But yes, in the prequel era I think it would be intresting to see more emotion about what happened to Qui-Gon from the other Jedi.
  10. ForceAlly Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2001
    star 2
    I don't know. I think Jedi at prequel era experienced lots of comrade death already. Take Jedi Council: Act of War for example, a council member is dead, along with some Jedi Knights and Padawans. The council felt sorrow, but that's about the story....
  11. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?I honestly don't think he was much better as a swordsman than Qui-Gon. He got lucky.?

    That?s an interesting opinion. But I think that all the evidence (both in the book and the movie itself) points to the contrary.

    ?But yes, in the prequel era I think it would be interesting to see more emotion about what happened to Qui-Gon from the other Jedi.?

    But I thought that all negative emotions (sadness, grief, anger, fear, and hatred) were of the Dark Side and against the Jedi?s philosophy. Empathy and even a certain amount of sympathy, is very acceptable, but to have negative emotions influence one?s actions is not of the Light Side.
  12. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "That?s an interesting opinion. But I think that all the evidence (both in the book and the movie itself) points to the contrary."

    By all literary accounts, Qui-Gon is one of the greatest swordsman the Jedi Order had ever seen. The only thing that saved Maul was the age factor. Even then, had the laser shields not been there, Qui-Gon would probably have won. He had Maul retreating rather rapidly.

    JMA
  13. peregrine Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2000
    star 4
    I don't think Maul was really retreating... He was trying to seperate Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon as best as he could, so that he could deal with them one by one.
  14. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?By all literary accounts, Qui-Gon is one of the greatest swordsman the Jedi Order had ever seen.?

    In the movie, and in the book, it was obvious that Maul was dominating that fight. How great of a swordsman Qui-Gon was compared to the other Jedi is not as relevant as how great of a swordsman he was compared to Maul. In the end, it?s not how good of a fighter you are compared to your friends; it?s how good you are compared to your enemies.

    Maul knew who the Jedi Master was, and he wanted to fight him one on one, because he knew he could win much more easily that way. He hoped that it would put some fear into Obi-Wan and make him less of a threat (although I think he did it more to assert his dominance over Obi-Wan. I doubt he thought he needed to make Obi-Wan less of a threat). It was shown that Maul could defend himself against both Jedi at the same time, but he needed to fight them one on one to kill them, I think.
  15. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "In the movie, and in the book, it was obvious that Maul was dominating that fight."

    Obvious that he was dominating the fight yes,until he knocked Obi-Wan off down several walkways. Qui-Gon took his opportunity to backhand Maul, and from that point on, it was very clear that Qui-Gon was the one who was dominating. In the movie, you can easily tell by the looks on Maul's face, not to mention the frantic pace of his movements, as he is constantly driven backwards by the Jedi Master. Had those laser walls not been there, Qui-Gon probably would have killed him on his own.

    JMA

    EDIT:

    "although I think he did it more to assert his dominance over Obi-Wan. I doubt he thought he needed to make Obi-Wan less of a threat"

    Obviously a mistake on his part, considering Obi-Wan bisected him shortly after that.

    JMA
  16. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    If QuiGon was better than Maul then why did he need the queens ship to pick him up on Tatooine? To save his a$$ thats why. He nearly died there and then. And that fight was one on one, plus Maul was using only one part of his sabre. He didnt even take of his cloak.
    And in the palace Maul took on both the jedi at once. Its is also very apparent that he is actually leading the fight, not 'retreating'. even the book says that.
    Also, Qui Gon himself says Obi Wan is more powerful than he himself. It really is no surprise that he got killed by Maul.
    Obi Wans win though, that was pure luck. he nrealy bought the big one as well.
  17. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "If QuiGon was better than Maul then why did he need the queens ship to pick him up on Tatooine? To save his a$$ thats why. He nearly died there and then. And that fight was one on one, plus Maul was using only one part of his sabre. He didnt even take of his cloak."

    Okay, Qui-Gon was caught completely by suprise at an attacker coming in on a speeder bike at like 90 miles an hour. And Qui-Gon didn't take his cloak off either. Saying that Maul was using only one part of his saber is irrelevant as well, because if he's such a great swordsman, he should be able to beat him with the traditional "sword" lightsaber rather than the "staff" one.

    "Obi Wans win though, that was pure luck. he nrealy bought the big one as well."

    I beg to differ. Luck had nothing to do with it. It had everything to do with Darth Maul being extremely overconfident, and Obi-Wan becoming completely centered in the light side of the Force. Had Maul killed him when he had the chance, Obi-Wan wouldn't have had that opportunity. But, because of Maul's supreme overconfidence, Obi-Wan gathered his thoughts, and destroyed him. Seems to be a failing trend of Sith Lords everywhere.

    "Your overconfidence is your weakness."

    JMA
  18. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    I agree with your comment on Mauls overconfidence. However he did have Obi Wan defeated, but then started gloating and thus that gave Obi Wan his chance.
    However yea i know Qui Gon didnt take his cloak off, heh, but Mauls cloak is larger and more restrictive. ;)
    anyway, Qui Gon wasnt caught that much off surprise, i mean he had a chance to warn Anakin, who had time to duck. Qui Gon was simply outmatched on both tatooine and the royal palace. i like qui-gon a lot, but face it. He couldnt stand up to Maul, nor could Obi Wan.
  19. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?Obviously a mistake on his part, considering Obi-Wan bisected him shortly after that.?

    I agree, JMA.

    ?Qui-Gon took his opportunity to backhand Maul, and from that point on, it was very clear that Qui-Gon was the one who was dominating. In the movie, you can easily tell by the looks on Maul's face, not to mention the frantic pace of his movements, as he is constantly driven backwards by the Jedi Master. Had those laser walls not been there, Qui-Gon probably would have killed him on his own.?

    Well it?s obviously not as clear as either of us thinks, because we?re not agreeing about it?. I saw an overbearing arrogance in Maul?s face throughout the entire fight scene. I remember from the book (well, I?ll be honest, I?ve only heard the audio version, but this was said in it) that Qui-Gon knew that Maul was luring him into that place. That Maul was pretending to be driven back, just so that he could bring Qui-Gon into the place that Maul wanted to take him.

    The killing blow was done after a short pause in the fight, where both Maul and Qui-Gon looked at each other, and what I saw in Qui-Gon?s face was a realization that he was in over his head. At that moment he knew he would not survive this, and that all this time Maul had simply been testing himself. Maul has a strange sort of honor, I think. He wanted to see everything that this Jedi could do before he killed him, because he believed that he would be facing many more in the future and he wanted to be prepared for it. That is why he spent so much time fighting with Qui-Gon; he wanted to know for sure that he could take on any Jedi. He was testing himself and the Jedi?s fighting skills.

    The final fighting sequence that ended with Qui-Gon getting impaled was played out like a chess game. Maul had learned Qui-Gon?s fighting style and how he could easily defeat him. It was a simple checkmate. Maul forced Qui-Gon to defend with his lightsaber at face level, and Maul simply shoved it up higher, at this point Qui-Gon was in checkmate. Maul had already won at that point, and the killing blow was simply knocking over the king to prove that the opponent had won. There was nothing Qui-Gon could have done differently in that final sequence that wouldn?t have ended in his death. But that is just the way I saw it.
  20. DarthIshtar Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 9
    Iron Parrot, I saw your comment earlier about "This would be a neat fanfic idea. Wonder if it's been done."

    Well, yes, it has. In Though Deepening Trials, my novella of the Old Republic Jedi Order, the two main characters, in their first assignment after their Knighting, are sent to a planet called Naboo to investigate the unusual death of a Jedi Master...

    Named Qui-Gon Jinn.
  21. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "He couldnt stand up to Maul, nor could Obi Wan."

    Ishtar Hmmm, again, I see the point you're making but I'm just going to have to disagree with it. Qui-Gon DID stand up to Darth Maul, landing a forceful punch that sent Maul flying and landing on his back a hundred feet below. And well...Obi-Wan killed him. Not only that, but he obviously had Maul on his heels in a pure sword fight, splitting the double edged saber, knocking Maul off his feet, etc., until Maul broke out the Force and knocked Obi-Wan into the pit. Maul knew Kenobi would probably kill him if he allowed it to continue as a pure sword fight, so he ended it with the Force. Smart maneuver on his part, although his fatal mistake came moments later by not finishing off Kenobi immediately.

    JediJSolo

    "Well it?s obviously not as clear as either of us thinks, because we?re not agreeing about it?."

    Well, that about sums up how I feel as well. Each of us saw something different during the fight. During the Jedi Duel, I saw the expressions on Maul's face go from iron-determination and hatred, to pure anger (When he threw the droid head at the activation device on the door. His face clearly expresses rage, and that's when he is able to severely batter the Jedi, 2 on 1.), to a much more worried look when he's retreating to the laser walls. The look on his face when he's glancing at the laser walls, and tests it with his saber, is anything but arrogant, in my opinion. He's just as suprised as anyone that that's where they were. His face looked, not frantic, because a Sith isn't going to be frantic ever I don't think...but certainly a bit...thankful maybe. The arrogance only showed through when he realized that for a time he was separated from Qui-Gon. He was able to gather his thoughts, his anger, and realized that thanks to the break in the fight, he was probably going to win this one. I see and respect your point of view on this, but I'm going to have to disagree and hold true to two points:

    A) Had the laser walls not been there, Qui-Gon would have probably killed Maul.

    B) Maul was anything but arrogant as Qui-Gon had him retreating, and I believe the looks on his face support this stance.

    Again, every viewer is going to take something different from this situation. I can easily see how you hold to your point. I just happen to disagree. I saw something different in the scene.

    JMA
  22. Sitara Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2001
    star 3
    Obi Wan was able to fight better and did push back Maul and break his lightsabe, but that was because he was in a rage, and thus tapping into the dark side of the force. Maul was able to use his tapping into the dark side as a conduit for a force power and thus was able to force push him into the pit. This btw, is taken directly form the starwars website. go check it out yourself. Normally jedi and sith cant use force powers on themselves,(apart from lightning i guess) because they cancell each other out. That is why they use lightsabers while fighting each other. remember, in the OT vader never used the grip on luke or ben.
    anyway, the fact is Maul was taken off guard by Obi Wans using the dark side(this is also mentioned in the novel, though not directly...i.e obi wan uses the force to throw things at Maul,dark sideish power, and also at the end when mace and yoda are talking the text says they knew what Obi Wan had done in order to win the fight, which was, tapping into the dark side)it is obvious maul would have recovered even if he had not used force push to knock obi wan back. But he took the first chance he got, i mean come on. the guy took them both on at the same time, he had to be gettin tired by now, wanted to end it quickly.
    Anyway, it does seem the jedi are not as honorabe as it seems. Qui Gon lies, cheats, dupes his way through the movie. Obi Wan considers Jar Jar a pest,(especially in the book) which although Jar Jar was, its not a way a jedi should act. ofcourse at the end, they take on an opponent 2 on 1 , which is not very honorable. ;)
  23. JediJSolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2001
    star 4
    ?His face looked, not frantic, because a Sith isn't going to be frantic ever I don't think...but certainly a bit...thankful maybe.?

    Actually, it is rather ironic that we are both trying to debate the facial expressions of an actor whose chief talent isn?t in acting. He is a martial arts expert and the stunt coordinator for TPM called him a brilliant gymnast, but I don?t think he has had much experience with actual acting. I?m not saying that he did a bad acting job (on the contrary, I believe he did a wonderful job), but I find this debate ironic non-the less.

    Thank you for your understanding. I can also understand where you are coming from. Understanding facial expressions isn?t an exact science, and trying to judge them through makeup makes it even more difficult and subject to speculation. You could be right about what Maul was thinking, but my opinion of the situation has not changed.
  24. JediMasterAaron Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2000
    star 5
    "but my opinion of the situation has not changed."

    ;) Not that I expected it to. Neither has mine. But that's part of the fun isn't it?

    JMA
  25. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    I agree that Maul had "Oh-damn, I screwed the pooch this time" look on his face when Qui-Gon was going after him one on one in Theed.

    As for the tattooine battle, Qui-Gon was the one with restrctive clothing. Maul's cloak had slits up the sides and down the sleeves. Qui-Gon was wearing a very solid poncho. ;)

    Anyhow, I think that the end conversation-as well as something said by Yoda in the book during the Council meetings on Coruscant-show how shook the Jedi were about Qui-Gon's death. Yoda's line in the TPM novel after Qui-Gon's revelation about the Sith:

    "Threatened, the Republic is, if the Sith are involved."

    To me, this shows that the only folks who worry the Jedi in the least are the Sith. Just the potential existence of one of them is enough to give Yoda concern.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.