Saga Does the prophecy actually make sense, or is Anakin just the worst chosen one ever?

I always found the prophesy part of the story difficult to make sense of but I think that's because I have struggled to understand what bringing 'balance' to the Force is. But looking at this info from George (kindly posted by Darth Sinister and TheJediTraitor) I think I've found a way of understanding it which works (at least for me)...


Lets say I view the Force as a mysitcal living being (I know that's not Lucas' definition but bear with me as I'm using this view as a vehicle for Lucas' metaphor about the darkside being a cancer). Then, using the cancer metaphor, when the dark side get's too strong the Force gets sick and ill (because the Sith are using the darkside a lot and causing this illness). This sickness in the Force can then be defined as 'inbalance'. (In the same way wholeness and health in the force would be defined as 'balance')

Anakin then comes along and his job, according to this prophecy, is to restore the balance and destroy the Sith which would mean his job is to heal the Force of it's sickness by getting rid of the cancer which is causing the sickness - so he has to kill the Sith or turn them.

In Palpatine's office I think Palpatine's apparent loss of initiative to Mace's great strength is a sham put on for Anakin's benefit. Before Anakin is close Palpatine is revelling in who he truly is and is fighting fluidly with great darkside power. Then Anakin gets close enough that Palpatine can sense him even while attuned to the fight and he allows his light sabre to be lost and acts like a trapped animal. He claims the Jedi are taking over, stirring up Anakin's distrust in the Jedi which he has previously laid the seeds of. It's also significant that Anakin finds him weaponless, on the floor, with Mace standing over him and Palpatine, of course, knows what Anakin is like about protecting his friends and he know's he has been like a father to him. He is manipulating Anakin to get him onside. Then he uses his force lightening and Mace turns it back on Palps and again he plays Anakin pretending to be hurt while adding to Anakin's decision, the weight of Padme's life. So in that moment Anakin weighs:

• His natural discontent and arrogance towards the Jedi who have not made him a Master, don't recognise his brilliance, and have asked him to do something which he thinks is wrong;
• Palpatine's lies about the Jedi taking over;
• His natural obsession with protecting his friends;
• His desperate need to save Padme.

Against...

• Obi-Wan's training, which he has frequently and regualrly learned to disregard.
• And his logical understanding that Palps is a Sith (but he's not sure the Sith are bad because they can save Padme and the Jedi would rather he accept her loss.)

In the moment he goes with his natural inclinations and Palpatine's lies.

Yes, Palpatine sacrificed his good looks but he gained the most powerful apprentice in the galaxy. This also means that, with this view of things, Anakin's presence might have changed the nature of Mace's death but Mace would have died and Palpatine would have won if Anakin had stayed in the Council Chamber. So Anakin's help is not the deciding factor in Palpatine taking control and creating the Empire.

Then, of course, Vader gets sereverly injured on Mustafar and is no longer so powerful but still pretty good so Palpatine keeps him. Finally, in ROTJ, as Lucas says, Vader uses the last ounce of goodness in him to save his son. He kills the Emporer and turns again to the light himself which destroys the Sith and heals the Force (=brings balance).

Finally I understand this prophency thing, or at least have a narrative in my head which holds water. (I think!) Phew!

 

jedi janitor?

 

Oops - sorry - I'll correct that - tired eyes!

 

Except Lucas didn't say that. Just because something is written on wikipedia doesn't make it true.

So what? A lot of people in the GFFA are probably "personally imbalanced". Why should that have a noteworthy effect on the balance of the Force?

Oh, my! Sounds like most people, including pretty much all children. Can the balance of the Force not handle things like emotion and challenges to authority?

No.

 

I think the Prophecy makes sense because it works and it is completed because all the Sith are dead.

 

I agree. It's as simple as that. By killing Palpatine, and giving up his life in the act of killing Palpatine, he stopped the succession of Sith that had gone on for thousands of years. There was a Sith Empire, then Sith wars which wiped out all the Sith except Bane. Then you had Bane beginning a chain of Sith and their apprentices which remained unbroken until Anakin stopped it by giving up his life to kill Palpatine.

It makes even more sense when you think about Bane's rule of two and the fact that every apprentice would eventually kill their master to take their place. So Vader killing his master wasn't something new - the difference was that instead of killing his master for power, he gave up his own life in the act of killing his master, leaving no Sith in power at all.


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Did you watch the TCW, especially season 5 and 6? Sounds like you didn't.

Do you think Palpatine can have an impact on the balance of the Force, but Anakin "the Chosen One" can't?

Of course all individuals have an impact on the balance of the Force. That's the point. The Force is an energy that connects all living beings, creatures, etc. There is the living force and the cosmic force. But individuals strong with the Force can have a large impact on the balance.

Why do you think when something major happens like the destruction of a planet, Yoda and other Jedi's can sense it?

IIRC, Yoda felt a disturbance in the Force when Anakin killed all the Sandpeople. It was truly the start of his path down the dark side. If you don't think that had an impact on the balance of the Force, then I don't think you understand what it is.

 

Beautifully said - I like it a lot.

 

Of course Anakin can have an impact on the balance of the Force. That's the whole premise of the prophecy. The point is that the Force is presumably not so fragile as to be thrown out of balance simply because someone is emotional or has personal issues or challenges authority. By those standards the Force would always be out of balance at every point in the history of the galaxy, rendering the concept effectively meaningless and making the restoration of balance practically impossible.

Can you name one instance in all of the canon where it was established that a lightsider unbalanced the Force, even a little bit?

Because I don't think the balance of the Force depends on a tribe of Tuskens, I don't understand what it is?

The plural of Jedi is Jedi. Did you watch the films? Sounds like you didn't.

 

I sense a little aggression in the air here

Oh just kiss already

 

When did I ever say it was thrown out of balance? It's about small impacts over time that sway the balance of the Force. It had already begun with the emergence of Palpatine. And it wasn't just some personal issues, Anakin made a large step towards the Dark Side with his slaughter of the Sand People. He was supposedly the Chosen One, but he let his hate overwhelm him and slaughtered innocent people, that's the definition of the Dark Side (hate). This caused a disturbance in the Force that they even show Yoda feeling (see clip below).



That would certainly sway the balance of the Force. As a Jedi that was supposed to be good, he had taken a major step towards the Dark Side. Do you think his murdering of the younglings impacted the balance of the Force in ROTS? Because it was basically the same thing he did with the Sand People (slaughtered innocence as a result of hate). I don't know how that could be seen as not having an impact on the balance. That's the entire point of the Prequel Trilogy, Anakin's journey to the Dark Side. His journey (aided by Palpatine), along with Palpatine's efforts, are what created the imbalance in the Force in the first place. That imbalance is later rectified by Anakin in ROTJ.

Do you think one day Anakin was 100% a lightsider and then overnight just magically switched to the Dark Side? It's simply not that black and white. And all throughout the The Clone Wars series they make that very clear. Anakin struggles to maintain his focus and allegence to the Jedi and the light side of the Force. His actions continue to stretch the limits of Jedi rules, often breaking them completely. This gradually expands the imbalance of the Force over time. There is even evidence that the Jedi council themselves begin to break their own rules maybe causing an imbalance (maybe). Their alegance to the Republic distracts them from their role as peace keepers, they become military generals, killing not defending. They even begin to betray their own, Ashoka for example.

This wasn't just a random lightsider having a bad day, this was the "Chosen One" lightsider making a huge step towards the Dark Side. A lightsider moving towards the dark side is most certainly a cause that would imbalance the Force. That's what the entire Prequel Trilogy is about, the rise of the Dark Side causing an imbalance in the Force. FYI, imbalance isn't something all the way on or off, there are degrees of imbalance just like anything in the world that has imbalance. And in the PT, this degree of change happened over time.

I see what you did there, really cute. My phone probably auto-corrected, it's done that before.

 

So what? Where is it established that "making a large step towards the dark side" unbalances the Force? There are probably many beings in the galaxy committing similar acts, making the same steps, all the time.

Then why does TESB Obi-Wan say that hate leads to the dark side? Is he saying that the dark side leads to itself? And wouldn't hate be a pretty common emotion in the galaxy? Again we find ourselves with a scheme that effectively makes the Force unable to ever be in balance.

When did seasons 5 and 6 even mention the balance of the Force? Maybe you're thinking of season 3?

I don't see the basis for any such certainty.

So during the period when the Force was in balance, no lightsiders ever moved toward the dark side? Do you actually think that sounds remotely plausible?

Did I say that?

Breaking rules unbalances the Force? Since when? You're just making stuff up. This is beginning to sound like an exceptionally fragile Force.

It's easy. One simply declines to make the assumption that it does.

Nothing in the world can be perfectly balanced?

Where is this established in the films? Answer: it isn't. In the old EU the imbalance had started before Anakin was even born.

Then you should tell your phone that adding an apostrophe and an "s" is not how you pluralize a noun, it's how you create the possessive form.

 

^lol, hold on while I get my Force Encyclopedia out where it reads "Darth Sidious is the only one that has an impact on the imbalance of the Force"

Sideous already created an imbalance in the Force before Anakin became a Jedi. That's why in the Prequels, they spoke about the imbalance in the present tense. But much of Sidious's influence came from manipulation of others and his recruitment of people to the Dark Side. The stronger the Dark Side became, the more imbalanced the Force was. I thought that was pretty clear based on Yoda's and the Councils' continued comments on Dark Side clouding the future, disrupting the balance. If Darth Sideous and other individuals influence the balance of the Force, I don't understand how Anakin's actions towards the dark side didn't.

You even said previously that Anakin has an impact on the balance of the Force, but you seem to refuse to acknowledge when he begins to do so. Is it only after he becomes full Sith? If so, does that mean Jedi and others can go around experimenting with the Dark Side and not impact the Force as long as they don't go full Sith? Seems a little ridiculous.

From what everyone is saying in this thread, the Prophecy was that the very existence of the Dark Side (the Sith, and those that followed) was the imbalance in the Force. So yes, any lightsider moving to the Dark Side would be an imbalance.

Personally, I don't think 100% light means the Force is balanced, anything less is imbalanced. But that is how people in this thread are interpreting the prophecy and balance of the Force based on Lucas's quotes and comments on the movies/story.


And if you're going to keep being a grammar Nazi, then I'll just put you on my ignore list. It's one thing if I wrote with no periods, or all caps. But dwelling on possessive vs plural use of one word is just ridiculous.

 

The Dark Side does not imbalance the Force.

The Sith do.

 

Surely the real question about the prophecy is whether or not it's just a load of hokum? I say this as inevitably the new series of movies will have one or more Sith, so the prophecy may well have only served the SW universe for 30 years before the Sith return. Not much balance to be worthy of prophecy IMO.

 

I think the 'balance of the force' is the health and wholeness of the force (and since it is in all living things it also relates to the health and wholeness of the galaxy).

Just got a question here... following on from this point, would you say that the Sith's use of the darkside cause imbalance?

 

Are there two sides to the Force or is the Dark Side a blanket term for when a Force User uses the Force to do bad things?

 

There were others besides Anakin who helped Palpatine become Emperor - Padme, Sifo-Dyas, Count Dooku, Darth Maul, the Jedi Order, Jar-Jar, the Galactic Senate, the Kaminoans, Jango Fett. He had a lot of help.

Is Anakin the worst Chosen One ever? I don't know. I think the Jedi (and many fans) had expected Anakin to bring balance to the force in some swift or straightforward manner. You know, stay true to the Jedi path, confront the Sith and defeat them. Like that. I guess it's dangerous to make assumptions.

I think a lot of people, including George Lucas, think so. I think imbalance was caused by both the Jedi and Sith's use of the force before Episode 1.

 

And with that, TheAvengerButton stepped into a debate that had carried on for years among SW aficionadoes - nay, centuries, or millennia! - among philosophizers about the nature of the universe and 'good and evil.'

 

Palpatine is the cause of the imbalance, but because he causes the lines between good and evil to become mixed and blurred. He makes good look evil and evil look good. This action is what causes the imbalance. It isn't Anakin doing evil deeds that causes it. The only contribution Anakin has is that his selfish deeds delays the restoration of balance for another 24 years. There is good and evil and they are always part of life. But when things are screwed up, then what you have is an imbalance.

"The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion—of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides—the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction."

--George Lucas, Time Magazine article, 1999

"I wanted to have this mythological footing because I was basing the films on the idea that the Force has two sides, the good side, the evil side, and they both need to be there. Most religions are built on that, whether it's called yin and yang, God and the devil—everything is built on the push-pull tension created by two sides of the equation."

--George Lucas, Time Magazine Article 2002.

 

^That doesn't make any sense. So Palpatine can imbalance the Force by clouding everyone's perception. But Anakin killing innocence and becoming Sith doesn't imbalance the Force?

And the line between good and evil was pretty clear all through the Original Trilogy. So was the Force balanced the whole time? If so, then Anakin taking down the Emperor wouldn't be the action that "balances" the Force and completes the prophecy.

I have a hard time believing that Palpatine's manipulation of people is the only thing that imbalances the Force. Meanwhile Dark Side agents murders and violent attacks by Darth Maul, General Grevious, Count Dooku, and Anakin's journey all have zero impact on the balance. That seems really hokey and stupid.

 

Death happens all the time. It is a natural part of life and the way of the Force. Everything that Palpatine did to become Emperor put the Force out of balance. The actions of the Alliance and of the Jedi during the OT era, starts to put it back, but it is the final actions of Anakin that does so. When he destroys Palpatine and saves his son without using the dark side as he found the balance within himself. The Sith from a thousand years before did not put the Force out of balance, nor whoever the new foe is in TFA.



Likewise in the old EU with the Sith that were around before and after the PT and OT era.

 

This is where what your saying doesn't make any sense. Your claim is that the imbalance was 100% in the hands of Palpatine, and nothing that Anakin or the others did, impacted it.

But then you say that actions of the Alliance in the OT begin to put it back in balance.

Again I say that while Palpatine was responsible for orchestrating everything, it was the actions of his subordinates / pawns that further pushed the edge of the imbalance.


And yes of course there is always death, and that's natural with the Force. Doesn't change the fact that murder by a Jedi or Sith are clearly negative events against the Force. Whereas natural death is not.

 

I honestly believe Lucas thought saying the Chosen one was the one who would save the world or save the day, would sound too cheap, so instead he came up with this "bring balance to the force" crap