Does the Saga deserve the title The Tragedy of Darth Vader?

Since this earlier thread is locked, and since this appears currently to be a hotly contested topic, I thought I would create a new thread specifically for this question.

Here are the parameters of the classical tragic hero, as vaguely followed by Shakespeare:

12 STEPS TO BECOMING A TRAGIC HERO
1) Man of High Estate. -We have a man of high estate, a king, prince, general, etc. Often, our first views of the hero are skewed through the eyes and views of another, giving us a hint at their potential and greatness.

2) A Flaw (or flaws) in Character. -We then become aware of a driving force within the hero, something that often at least borders on obsession. We will also witness the nature of the inner torment he goes through as he follows his obsession(s).

3) Intrusion of Time and a Sense of Urgency.- As the inner and outer conflicts the hero faces as he pursues his course intensify, we see time becoming more and more important. A sense of urgency develops with the plot and the conflict that not only creates tension, but also creates the effect of a kind of steamrolling inevitability regarding the hero's fall that he has put into motion himself.

4) Misreadings and Rationalizations. -Contributing to, and furthering the obsession and the control of the tragic flaw, are misreadings, supernatural suggestion, and accident or chance. Things happen a split-second too late: the hero operates on what he believes to be the case rather than what he actually knows to be the case. Soon they are one and the same thing to him.

5) Murder, Exile, Alienation of Enemies and Allies. -As the story continues, conflicts arise which cause the death or alienation of all of the hero's former friends, allies, and/or mentors, eventually removing all forms of support for the hero. He must face things alone.

6) Gradual Isolation of the Tragic Hero. -Soon the hero is isolated, brining on new problems: sleeplessness, rage, confusion, hallucination, and violence.

7) Mobilization of the Opposition. -At some point, the opposing forces must mobilize against the hero in order to bring the tragedy to its conclusion.

8) Tragic Recognition of the Flaw by the Tragic Hero: Too Late. At some point, the hero must realize the mistake he has made that is bringing about his demise. He must know that he, and he alone, is to blame for his downfall. However, this recognition always comes to late to save the life of the hero.

9) Last, Courageous Attempt to Restore Lost Honor/Greatness. -While the hero's life is forfeit, he does, after Tragic Recognition, receive some chance to redeem himself, at least a little. A display of courage, nobility of the heart, self-sacrifice, something to show us that while he was someone who needed to be defeated, brought down,
or even a monster, he had good in him.

10) Audience Recognizes Potential for Greatness.-This is inevitably tied to the hero's attempt to restore his greatness. The audience must recognize what a tragic waste the death of the hero is, what kind of person he could have been had it not been for his mistakes and downfall.

11) Death of the Tragic Hero. -The Hero Must Die. Finito. The End.

12) Restoration of Order. -A central theme to all Shakespearean plays, tragedies and others. The natural order of things must be reestablished.


Discuss.

 

The whole saga centers around this character. From TPM, it's the start of his journey from a well-meaning kid that has a hard time letting go of the fact that he won't be around his mother anymore... and that has reprocussions in all of the rest of the films. We see this development of a small flaw that keeps getting worse and worse. He has a hard time letting things go, and that problem eventually becomes his downfall. Something good that takes the wrong path with good intention, and that path leads to destruction. He decided to use the dark side to save his wife, and take control of everyone in his life that meant something to him, while not realizing that nobody can have full control in life until they have that inner strength. And that can't exist when there's also fear there. We see a guy almost filled with fear, and he goes through a transformation. We soon discover that those who cause the most fear in others are the ones who are or once were the most fearful... and that's what Darth Vader stands for. Of course we later find out there's a redeeming quality to him. He still has that spark of light left, and in the end he is redeemed. To me, that's what defines a tragic character. They end with the same good intentions they started with, but the path is rocky and painful.

 

To me, it's mostly a moot discussion because it's highly debatable just who the hero or central figure of the story is. If you're looking at the PT, it's definitely Anakin--and the PT certainly has tragic overtones. If you're looking at the OT, it's definitely Luke, and his journey is anything but tragic, even if his experiences are sometimes tragic (i.e. the deaths of Owen & Beru, Obi-Wan and Yoda). When looked at as a whole, the "saga" concludes on such a high note--pretty much the polar opposite of the outcomes of your classical tragedies.

 

I think that it can retroactively be dubbed the Tragedy of Darth Vader, though I do think that glosses over the fact that Luke takes center stage for the second half of the Saga after his father's great failure in RotS. I mean, Vader does fit the classic cycle fairly well (though, most of this takes place during the PT, with the OT really only coming into play at the very end.)

1) Man of High Estate. -We have a man of high estate, a king, prince, general, etc. Often, our first views of the hero are skewed through the eyes and views of another, giving us a hint at their potential and greatness.

He doesn't have worldly power, but his status as the prophecized Chosen One seems to fit. We also get rather explicit hints at his greatness from Mace.

2) A Flaw (or flaws) in Character. -We then become aware of a driving force within the hero, something that often at least borders on obsession. We will also witness the nature of the inner torment he goes through as he follows his obsession(s).

This would of course be the fear of loss and change, which we first see when Anakin is leaving Shmi. It would probably more specifically be his fear of losing Padme as far as the framework is concerned.

3) Intrusion of Time and a Sense of Urgency.- As the inner and outer conflicts the hero faces as he pursues his course intensify, we see time becoming more and more important. A sense of urgency develops with the plot and the conflict that not only creates tension, but also creates the effect of a kind of steamrolling inevitability regarding the hero's fall that he has put into motion himself.

This would be his constant fear of Padme's death once he has the vision. Admittedly, I think the novelization executes this part far better than the film does.

4) Misreadings and Rationalizations. -Contributing to, and furthering the obsession and the control of the tragic flaw, are misreadings, supernatural suggestion, and accident or chance. Things happen a split-second too late: the hero operates on what he believes to be the case rather than what he actually knows to be the case. Soon they are one and the same thing to him.

This would probably be his misreading of the vision of Padme's death. The Force seems to be saying he needs to prepare for her inevitable death in child birth, but he believes he has to stop it.

5) Murder, Exile, Alienation of Enemies and Allies. -As the story continues, conflicts arise which cause the death or alienation of all of the hero's former friends, allies, and/or mentors, eventually removing all forms of support for the hero. He must face things alone.

Anakin feels unable to rely on Mace, Yoda, Obi-Wan, or Padme as he grows more desperate and decides that only he can stop her death.

6) Gradual Isolation of the Tragic Hero. -Soon the hero is isolated, brining on new problems: sleeplessness, rage, confusion, hallucination, and violence.

Rage and Violence start to grip Anakin as he falls deeper into the Dark Side's grasp. This culminates in the slaughter of the Jedi and the throttling of Padme.

7) Mobilization of the Opposition. -At some point, the opposing forces must mobilize against the hero in order to bring the tragedy to its conclusion.

Of course, once he's done these things Obi-Wan goes to confront him.

8) Tragic Recognition of the Flaw by the Tragic Hero: Too Late. At some point, the hero must realize the mistake he has made that is bringing about his demise. He must know that he, and he alone, is to blame for his downfall. However, this recognition always comes to late to save the life of the hero.

Anakin doesn't recognize this until Return of the Jedi, where he seems to know it was his fault, but feels it's too late for him to be anything but the golem he's become.

9) Last, Courageous Attempt to Restore Lost Honor/Greatness. -While the hero's life is forfeit, he does, after Tragic Recognition, receive some chance to redeem himself, at least a little. A display of courage, nobilit

 

Yeah, the saga pretty much revolves around him and the choices he makes.

 

Yeah, but the second half revolves around the choices Luke makes.

 

True, but the saga is about Anakin's rise, fall, and redemption.

 

I disagree. The prequel trilogy is about the fall of peace, the rise of an empire, with anakin being a key player in the happenings. The original trilogy is about the opposite, with Luke being the key player in the happenings.

 

Other than the Tatooine segment in TPM, Obi-Wan is really the closest thing the PT has to a Luke-style audience proxy character.

 

The prequel trilogy should not have a Luke type character, though. It would only hinder the saga as a whole, seeing as Lukes views are the aftermath of the events that take place in the pt.

 

I don't mean personality-wise, I just mean, the person with whom we identify through whose eyes we follow the overall story. Really, in TPM it's actually more Qui-Gon, but then he passes the torch to Obi-Wan, who in turn passes it to Luke.

They also sort of pass responsibility for Anakin down the line.

 

The story is far more complex though. In order for the pt to retain the scope that it has, it must focus on more characters. I think if one were to view the pt without having seen the ot, the payoff would be seeing the characters emerge. If you think about it, Yoda just sits there in a chair in tpm. The audience has no clue where he's going to go. And I agree, Qui Gon is definitely a focus point, which is why his death will likely be more shocking as well. Anakin/Vader is almost this lingering question mark throughout the saga...

 

It's been suggested that the entire Saga cannot be subtitled the "TODV" for the simple reason that Anakin/Vader is not the main character, except in ROTS. Even if Anakin/Vader fulfills all of the elements of a classical/Shakespearean tragedy, which itself is obviously debatable, is it appropriate to name a story that is largely about other characters after this one second- or third-tier character?

Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon suggested the following breakdown of protagonists:

TPM: Qui-Gon Jinn
AOTC: Obi-Wan Kenobi
ROTS: Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader
'ANH', ESB, ROTJ: Luke Skywalker

The only place I might debate this listing is with AOTC, where clearly Anakin and Obi-Wan share the spotlight. But even if we attach Anakin to AOTC as the co-main character, that still yields us only two films out of six in which he figures as anything other than a secondary hero or, even less prominently, as a minor villain with only a few minutes of total screen time.

Do these facts alter the plausibility of the "TODV" subtitle?

 

It's pretty obvious to me that the prequels revolve around Anakin. One of the whole points to TPM is to introduce us to Anakin, create some backstory, reveal his high midichlorian count (Force potential leading them to believe he is the Chosen One), his exceptional piloting abilities. He's the one that even saves the day at the end of the film.

AOTC shows his gradual turn to darker means by which to defeat enemies, after someone he loved dearly (his mother) died in his arms. Much of the film is showing that Anakin has problems with attachments, and pride issues (Obi-Wan never exclaiming how great his padawan is... this carries over to the whole Jedi Council not "appreciating" his great power in ROTS). AOTC is a foreshadowing of how Anakin will react to the prospect of losing those things most important to him in his life (Padme, pride, status, respect).

Do I even need to say how ROTS revolved around his character?

I'll give you ANH. It's Luke's film for sure.

ESB is a galactic chase tale, with Vader being the cat chasing the mouse. Everything going on deals with Vader: The Battle of Hoth that Vader instigated, Luke's training, Han & Co racing across the galaxy, etc. And in the end, we find out he's the father of Luke, making him an even more pivotal character. ESB has a lot of main characters, but I think Vader crosses the finish line as the most consequential and important.

ROTJ is like ROTS in that I don't know if I even need to go there. The backbone of the story is Vader beginning to change as he stews on what Luke has said to him. Everyone is depending on him redemption. The redemption is required not only to save the rebellion, but bring balance to the Force. The entire fate of the galaxy, contrary to popular belief, rests on Vader's shoulders. He's the one that's going to have to pull a surprise attack if the Emperor is going to perish. Obviously, Vader is the hero of the film, and his redemption is complete.

 

Exactly. This is why it still holds that the whole saga can really be the story of Darth Vader after all... because even though his son (an important fact in itself) is the main hero of the OT, it is Luke's actions at the end of ROTJ that push Vader/Anakin to take action, destroy the Sith, bring balance to the Force, and fulfill his destiny... all while saving his son. So the hero of the OT prompts the hero of the whole saga to redeem himself, and become that hero (albeit a tragic hero).

 

Anakin is not even the hero of the films that he figures prominently in, let alone the "hero of the whole saga."

 

It's not enough for him to be a driving force in the plot. The shark in Jaws drives the plot too. The terrorists in Die Hard drive the plot. It matters greatly who we're actually spending 12 hours of screen time following along with.

 

Except Anakin isn't the hero of the Saga. Obi-Wan is painted as a far more sympathetic character and is essentially the protagonist of the Prequels until he passes the baton to Luke in A New Hope. You could argue Anakin is the central figure of the Saga I suppose, but not the hero.

 

OK, maybe "hero" was not the right choice of words for Anakin/Vader... I will say that he could still be considered a "tragic hero" in many ways, though, or at least as you said the central figure of the whole saga.

 

I really think he's only the 'central figure' insomuch as has the most consistently large role, but really Obi-Wan and Luke share the role of series protagonist. It's kind of like how if you combine The Hobbit and LotR as a 'saga' you could say that Gollum is the 'central figure', even though Bilbo is clearly the protagonist of The Hobbit and Frodo is clearly the protagonist of LotR.

YODA: You are reckless.
BEN: So was I, if you'll remember.

Luke may be Anakin's son, but he's just as much a continuation and eventually perfection of Obi-Wan's character. Obi-Wan is wise and powerful, but in the end he is too constrained by the flawed dogmatic views of the PT's Jedi order. We see this throughout TPM as Qui-Gon admonishes him for ignoring the living Force, in RotS with the hypocritical phrase "Only a Sith deals in absolutes," and in RotJ in his inability to sense the goodness buried within Vader. Luke possesses his father's attunement to the living Force, which allows him to carry Obi-Wan's mission to fruition. In fact, he's the fulfillment of everything Qui-Gon was striving for from the start of the saga.

Qui-Gon's apprentice and his would-be apprentice complement each other, the strengths of each countering the weaknesses of the others. Obi-Wan's understanding of the Force is perhaps too 'cold' and reliant on the old rules, while Anakin's is too 'hot' and reliant on instinct. But because they are separate Palpatine is able to turn these two forces against each other. Luke, though, becomes the perfect union of Obi-Wan's 'cold' strength and Anakin's 'hot' strength in one person, and thus is able to defeat Palpatine.

At the end of RotJ, Luke has taken his place as the true Chosen One, for he himself IS the Force brought into balance. Not a balance of light and dark, but a perfect balance of the Unifying Force (represented by Obi-Wan) and the Living Force (represented by Anakin). It takes almost 40 years, but Qui-Gon's vision of a balanced Force is finally fulfilled, and Luke is the hero that does it.

 

My simple feeling is that the Saga isn't the tragedy of Darth Vader but the Fall of Anakin and the Triumph of Luke because the SAGA is not a Tragedy.

The PT could be considered a Tragedy while the OT is a Hero's Journey.

Luke is the central Hero of the Saga as stated by GL in the Magic of Myth tour and Anakin is a Tragic Hero. Consider the following:

Hero: A hero refers to characters (fictional or historical) that, in the face of danger and adversity or from a position of weakness, display courage and the will for self-sacrifice ? that is, heroism ? for some greater good.

Tragic Hero: A tragic hero is the main character in a tragedy who makes an error in his or her actions that leads to his or her downfall.

Not to mention that The Main Star Wars Theme is Luke Skywalker's Theme.

I also agree with the sentiment that Anakin isn't exactly the main character of the PT while it is clear that Luke is the main character of every movie of the OT. The PT is the Fall of the Republic while the OT is Luke's Hero Journey. This is understandable because as Lucas said in the book Icons: Intimate Portraits "the first trilogy is social and political and talks about how society evolves, Star Wars is more about personal growth and self realization, and the third deals with moral and philosophical problems. The sequel is about Jedi Knighthood, justice, confrontation, and passing on what you have learned."

 

Luke is the epic hero. But it is Anakin's actions that dictate the story for the most part.

 

Tragic characters exist in stories that are not themselves tragedies.

 

True, but if you look at what Merlin has posted. You can make a case for the Star Wars saga being a tragedy.